A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default "Rebuilding" a henry inspired thread

    last offseason, I made a thread on another forum about what it would take for me to be patient and wait as we rebuilt a team that has been more than one player away from being a contender for over 2 decades.

    recently I was reading a thread that Henry posted in about rebuilding, so im gonna put here what I think rebuilding entails and im hoping others will add to it or debate it.

    My idea of rebuilding is simple, you dont just blow everything up, you take the few pieces you have and you build around them, once you establish a decent team and scheme you can use free agency to fill the final pieces or you can grab them as they come up (like elite corners, Dt's or players who are hard to find.)

    Coaches- you dont get established guys, they have reputations and will be more concerned with their current legacy than building one here, you find a great young coordinator who has shown flashes of leadership and you take a chance on someone who is gonna take some chances to build a legacy HERE.

    IMHO this team is in dire need of depth and some starters at several positions but its not a terrible one win type team.

    rebuilding vs reloading
    rebuilding, you get rid of players who you know wont be here for the run, if you can get anything for them you take it, you dont try to get their value because in all likelyhood they wont be valuable to anyone else as much as they are to you. you gather draft picks, you dont worry about how you will do NOW because you are building for at least 3 years away. You know what scheme you will run once you have your players but for NOW you run conservative offence, protect your players and run a basic defence where you install your principles but dont show your whole hand until you have a full roster.

    reloading you trade your aging stars for draft p;icks ala the patriots and the steelers. you dont keep guys until they are useless.

    Youth vs experience
    when rebuilding I favour the shotgun approach, sign a ****load of young guys to fight for roster spots and compete. sometimes the most talented guys arent the ones you need when you are rebuilding. You want young hungry guys with upside. once you have a foundation THEN you can sign a few spot guys.

    basically you get rid of everyone over 30 and you hope to find some gems late in the draft because you cant fill everything with the picks you have. if a stud FA comes up you grab him if you can but only if hes young and fits what you do.

    I thought this was common sense, but then our team hasnt shown much of that and this FO is no exception

    I think if the team had just said " hey bear with us we are rebuilding" instead of trading draft picks for aging vets, then fans would be more patient, I know I would.

    anyway after decades of being marginal I could take rebuilding, if i honestly thought there was a cohesive plan for the future.

    what do you guys think?
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    A couple of problems with this that have been mentioned in other threads. First off, very few teams are going to come out and say "we're rebuilding, be patient". And, as much as I would like to see us do this, there is a good reason for that. Look at the Lions. How long have they been rebuilding now? Since Barry retired? 10+ years at this point, and we all think they are making good progress, but their record still sucks this year, so it's kind of hard to know for sure.

    Snyder can't allow that to be risked. The bottom line is that he doesn't trust his fan base to be patient. And, as much as I hate to say this, he may be right. Ryman, I don't want to get into a debate about the 3-4 D in this thread, you have posted your feelings elsewhere and backed it up with some great stats; the fact is that after 12 games, 75% (at least) of the fans want Jim Haslett fired. If we tore everything down to the ground and did what you suggest, most of us would not only be OK with it in the off season, we would endorse it. Enthusiastically.

    But once the young players started making stupid mistakes that cost us games, the complaining and second guessing would start. Why didn't we keep Cooley, he would have made that catch to seal the win. We shouldn't have traded London, the D would be better with a vet back there. Etc., etc, etc.

    Snyder knows this, and can't risk alienating his customers, because we haven't demonstrated we're patient enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Snyder can't allow that to be risked. The bottom line is that he doesn't trust his fan base to be patient. And, as much as I hate to say this, he may be right. Ryman, I don't want to get into a debate about the 3-4 D in this thread, you have posted your feelings elsewhere and backed it up with some great stats; the fact is that after 12 games, 75% (at least) of the fans want Jim Haslett fired. If we tore everything down to the ground and did what you suggest, most of us would not only be OK with it in the off season, we would endorse it. Enthusiastically.
    I respectfully disagree with this assessment. If we were under the impression that this was in fact a rebuild, I think you'd see patience through this fanbase that you never thought you'd see. When you rebuild, you cannot expect victories. And truth be told I think a large contigent of our fanbase would be reacting much differently about the current situation if Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan didn't try to sell us being competitive.

    It's okay for a coach to come out and say, "We're installing systems this year and taking a look at players. It's our first year in a new place and it's the players first year with us. Obviously, we always want to win. But let's keep in mind that we have a ton of work to do. We have to see what guys are a fit and we have to get used to the guys around us. There is a tremendous learning curve and adjustment to learning both a new offense and a new defense. Our fanbase is fantastic and I know they expect a ton from our football team, but keep in mind that this is going to be a process."

    Snyder knows this, and can't risk alienating his customers, because we haven't demonstrated we're patient enough.
    He alienates his customers now
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    Well, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

    And sorry, KDawg, but our fans do NOT have patience, IMHO. At least not enough of them to drown out the overly impatient.

    I'm still loathe to discuss many off-season moves, yet. There are details we can't know, that could affect what we think now, verses a month from now. So I'll wait.

    (I know you're all disappointed)

    Of course the applicable no-brainers are, we need to get younger and faster. By all means necessary.

    Draft
    Free Agency
    Trades

    Fans will not care how we get a winner, but they'll complain about every way we try, until we get one.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    Well, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
    Which is the approach we've used for a decade and failed to accomplish anything with

    And sorry, KDawg, but our fans do NOT have patience, IMHO. At least not enough of them to drown out the overly impatient.
    No need to apologize to me. We disagree. That's what forums are for. But we've never been in a state of rebuilding, so really, neither you or I know how that would pan out. It's all a guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    I respectfully disagree with this assessment. If we were under the impression that this was in fact a rebuild, I think you'd see patience through this fanbase that you never thought you'd see. When you rebuild, you cannot expect victories. And truth be told I think a large contigent of our fanbase would be reacting much differently about the current situation if Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan didn't try to sell us being competitive.

    It's okay for a coach to come out and say, "We're installing systems this year and taking a look at players. It's our first year in a new place and it's the players first year with us. Obviously, we always want to win. But let's keep in mind that we have a ton of work to do. We have to see what guys are a fit and we have to get used to the guys around us. There is a tremendous learning curve and adjustment to learning both a new offense and a new defense. Our fanbase is fantastic and I know they expect a ton from our football team, but keep in mind that this is going to be a process."
    Fair point. My counter-argument would be that given the small sample size from he can judge, it is somewhat understandable that Snyder THINKS we are not patient. Whether we would be or not is actually close to irrelevant. Snyder looks at the fanbase that wants to fire Haslett yesterday, that wanted to fire Zorn after 1 season, and all the other examples. Now, I know your counter-argument will be that the fans were right in wanting those moves (thinking more of the Zorn move, really). True, but again, it still does not demonstrate lots of patience that we fans have.

    In the end, it comes down to your response to Ax. It's all hypothetical until he actually does something, we can not know for sure how the fans will respond. My argument is (and I feel dirty for saying this) that I actually understand Snyder's position in this one a little. From his perch, we are an impatient lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    He alienates his customers now
    This, we can absolutely agree on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Fair point. My counter-argument would be that given the small sample size from he can judge, it is somewhat understandable that Snyder THINKS we are not patient. Whether we would be or not is actually close to irrelevant. Snyder looks at the fanbase that wants to fire Haslett yesterday, that wanted to fire Zorn after 1 season, and all the other examples. Now, I know your counter-argument will be that the fans were right in wanting those moves (thinking more of the Zorn move, really). True, but again, it still does not demonstrate lots of patience that we fans have.
    That would be my argument. Although, speaking personally (but not as a fanbase) I thought Zorn deserved year two. Why? Because we hired the guy knowing he had no experience. The problem was, we didn't go under a rebuilding project with him. So now you have a new coach with win now expectations. He was almost set up to fail, and I still believe going into Zorn year two, the Redskins had already contacted Mike Shanahan about the next season. But that's COMPLETE conjecture with no substance to it. But, towards the middle of Zorn year two, I was on the get rid of him bandwagon. Why? He was hamstrung. Even if the guy could coach (I'm not sold on that, for the record) he didn't have a shot. Purge the front office. That was my opinion. And I'm glad that we did!

    And you're right, it doesn't demonstrate patience. But the counter argument to that is: Perhaps we have some smart football fans who know what's going on.

    In the end, it comes down to your response to Ax. It's all hypothetical until he actually does something, we can not know for sure how the fans will respond. My argument is (and I feel dirty for saying this) that I actually understand Snyder's position in this one a little. From his perch, we are an impatient lot.
    Yup. You hit the nail on the head. But how much different would it be if we hit the reset button and stunk versus trying to win now and stunk? At the very least, it would be interesting. And really, how much worse could it get?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    And you're right, it doesn't demonstrate patience. But the counter argument to that is: Perhaps we have some smart football fans who know what's going on.
    Perhaps. But then again, we must be masochistic, cause we can't stop watching and participating. On some level, that indicates some sort of stupidity.

    Oh, forgot this:

    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    Yup. You hit the nail on the head. But how much different would it be if we hit the reset button and stunk versus trying to win now and stunk? At the very least, it would be interesting. And really, how much worse could it get?
    That sentiment right there is why I think we should blow it up. The Skins suck. We've sucked consistently for so long, how much worse can it get, really? I do think if the FO came out with a cohesive plan, the fanbase would accept things for a while. I look at the Thunder in the NBA. They've built around Durant and Westbrook, and are now looking to be really good. But they also really sucked for a while. Of course, their GM is now telling people to keep their expectations in check, they are still building. At some point, you have to be prepared to win.

    But what do I know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Of course, their GM is now telling people to keep their expectations in check, they are still building. At some point, you have to be prepared to win.

    But what do I know?
    See, that's also an issue. You can't play that card for too long. I don't know that there is any set time frame to it. But once you start looking good, to the point of being on the brink, the time table to say "we're still building" is behind you.

    It's all in timing. If you say you're going to rebuild, you better know that you don't have eternity to do it. But saying you're rebuilding will buy you a few years
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    Which is the approach we've used for a decade and failed to accomplish anything with
    True, but with a different group calling the shots. This group may fail as well. But, if they can't pick out veterans (free agents) to improve the team, how the hell can they do any better picking even more unproven, untested college players?



    No need to apologize to me. We disagree. That's what forums are for. But we've never been in a state of rebuilding, so really, neither you or I know how that would pan out. It's all a guess.
    You're right, it's ALL a guess. And, I know there's no need to apologize, (it was actually just a figure of speech) I was just trying to convey a respect for your opinions, in general.
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    I've inspired a thread? I am truly humbled.

    Sadly, I have nothing useful to add here. KDawg pretty much said everything I was going to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    True, but with a different group calling the shots. This group may fail as well. But, if they can't pick out veterans (free agents) to improve the team, how the hell can they do any better picking even more unproven, untested college players?
    Wanna know the kicker? I think Bruce Allen is pretty much just finagling contracts and isn't getting much say on personnel.

    The way I see it, Shanahan screwed the pooch with the switch to the 3-4. I also think he's a mediocre talent evaluator. He hits on some, he misses on some, but I think he misses on more of the major pieces. Couple that was his defensive coordinator being a poor talent evaluator and you have a mess in the personnel department.

    You're right, it's ALL a guess. And, I know there's no need to apologize, (it was actually just a figure of speech) I was just trying to convey a respect for your opinions, in general.
    Good. Never apologize to me. Ever. Got it!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    The way I see it, Shanahan screwed the pooch with the switch to the 3-4. I also think he's a mediocre talent evaluator. He hits on some, he misses on some, but I think he misses on more of the major pieces. Couple that was his defensive coordinator being a poor talent evaluator and you have a mess in the personnel department.
    No argument here. My preseason analysis was, overrated coach with an overrated QB, and my hope was that both would prove me wrong.

    I realize the season isn't through yet, but there are no signs that this assessment will change anytime soon.



    Good. Never apologize to me. Ever. Got it!?
    Sorry.
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    I think the kicker is this, during a time when our team has been horrible on the field, we are still top 5 in value overall. this shows that we have put up with a brutal on field product, granted a lot of that is because we are always being sold that we are just "a few players away" but most knowledgable fans know better.

    now for Ax, I agree that there will always be screamers in our fanbase, however I think the majority of us, if given a real plan and having the team be honest with us, would accept a short period of real badness AS LONG AS WE SAW TANGIBLE PROOF OF A PLAN BEING FOLLOWED.

    I would do it like this,
    this offseason I would rebuild the offencive line, add some receivers and backs, give Mcrapp one more season to show he isnt a one system wonder. I would add depth where possible on defence and add a linebacker to start at sam and go back to our 4-3.

    I would tell the fans " we are rebuilding this team now, we wont be great this season and perhaps next but we arent trading away the future to be marginally better now.

    I would also trade anyone over 30 including Albert if I could get the right price lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    now for Ax, I agree that there will always be screamers in our fanbase, however I think the majority of us, if given a real plan and having the team be honest with us, would accept a short period of real badness AS LONG AS WE SAW TANGIBLE PROOF OF A PLAN BEING FOLLOWED.
    I disagree. I remember well, the local media writing numerous articles, during the beginning Gibbs first stint, that the "Three yards and a cloud of dust" would never work. Fortunately, there weren't websites where tens of thousands of fans, who agreed with them, could go to piss and moan all week long, about how many mistakes the team was making, and continually feed the impatient beast. Those days are gone forever.

    People claim patience, but only exercise it when things are done the way THEY think it should be.
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    It's funny being a Canadian, who lives in the hockey-crazed market of Toronto, ON. The Toronto Maple Leafs mean the world to Ontario and have for the longest time been a mirror image of the Washington Redskins.

    a. A large market team with unlimited resources.
    b. A team that has apparently "always been a few players away" and has always been willing to spend to excite the fanbase.
    c. Fills seats regardless of their record and history of mediocrity.
    d. Traded countless draft picks for big names.

    Currently, the Toronto Maple Leafs are undergoing what many of us have been clamouring for in D.C. - a commitment to youth through an overhaul and rebuild.

    I'll say one thing about what I'm witnessing in what I like to call the "NHL version of the Redskins." As soon as that rebuild goes sour and people start getting restless with the youth that have been brought in and realize that they may not amount to anything, the tolerance amongst the fans doesn't increase due to the simple fact that the team is young. Sooner or later, fans want a winner.

    When you commit mostly to build through the draft, you better hope you get it right and hit on talent more often than not. Otherwise, you risk setting yourself back several more years.

    Does the Shannahan/Allen combination have what it takes to see us through successful draft years? This will undoubtedly be the true indicator as to the success they have here, and the level of patience fans would have in the event of a total rebuild.
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    Great post, CH. This is what I am trying to say. Most of us say we are fine with a rebuilding program. But DET rebuilt for how long? St Louis? Are any of us going to remain patient 3 years in, when we are still going 5-11? How about year 5? Year 7?

    What in our current FO structure leads you to believe at all that our scouting dept is capable of turning draft picks into contributors?

    Danny knows all this, and so does Shanahan. They know we say we will be patient, but won't be when it comes down to it.

    At least most of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Great post, CH. This is what I am trying to say. Most of us say we are fine with a rebuilding program. But DET rebuilt for how long? St Louis? Are any of us going to remain patient 3 years in, when we are still going 5-11? How about year 5? Year 7?

    What in our current FO structure leads you to believe at all that our scouting dept is capable of turning draft picks into contributors?

    Danny knows all this, and so does Shanahan. They know we say we will be patient, but won't be when it comes down to it.

    At least most of us.
    Goaldie! we've been patient for 18 friggin years!!!!!!!! 3-5 years would be a godsend.......
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    It doesn't matter whether 'fans' are patient. Seriously - exactly what leverage do fans who are impatient have? Does anyone seriously think a significant number of them are going to boycott games? The Redskins have sucked for the better part of 15 years, and they remain at the top of the league's money-makers.

    Worrying that the fanbase won't be patient is a red herring. It doesn't matter one bit if they are or they aren't.

    A good owner understands that.

    Snyder got it halfway right during the first half of his tenure. Ignore the fans. Do exactly what you think you need to do and totally disregard the fans. The only problem with his strategy is that he didn't have a clue how to build a winning organization. I think he's starting to get it now. No matter how you feel about this season, we are in far better hands with Shanahan and Allen in place.

    If we can rebuild the lines, keep coaching stable, find a young QB, and ignore media/fan/talking head outroar for the 3-4 seasons it will take to really rebuild this team, we could be back in business as a winning franchise again.
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    Yeah, I can kind of see that, Boone. I think the Zorn/Vinny debacle scared Snyder though. Fans were really angry by the end of that, especially when the season tickets fiasco was reported. I suspect Snyder was flustered because for the first time in his 10 years of ownership, the fans looked really mad, and it even looked like there might be potential for a boycott, especially if things didn't get better.

    I like your plan, my problem with it is, are we sure we have the personnel to run it. I'm not even talking about Shanny and Allen, I'm mainly referring to the scouting department. You know, the scouting department that evidently told Vinny and Dan than Devin Thomas was a better prospect than DeSean Jackson?

    My concern if we commit to 3-4 years of suckage by starting over, is that 3-4 years will turn into a lot more because our scouting department isn't up to snuff.
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