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Haslett: Poor Hire?

Haynesworth himself said that he has agreed to this role. He has also said that he is not good at NT and he is not good at holding his ground and taking up blockers so the LB's can do their job. He only knows one thing and that is to move upfield.

A good running team will take advantage of him if he was in there on running downs. He deserves to be a backup with his poor mentality. I've stuck up for him before, but, if he cannot change and adapt, then he needs to be gone.
 
his skillset is not suited to a stand and hold style, never has been. anyone who has played or coached Dlinemen could have said what would happen. He has agreed to this role because he has no choice, I blame the coaching staff for not paying attention to what our players are best suited for and using them to the teams best advantage. and when he was with the titans he was a beast against the run when schemed right.

and yes I agree you get paid you do what you are told, but I somehow doubt when you do what was done to AH that you are ever going to get his best effort.

He does deserve to be a back up in the 3-4 because he is not effective in a 3-4, but what does that say about our coaches when we take a probowl dmvp calibre guy and pay him 100mil, then change the scheme so that he not only not effective but becomes a backup?
 
Well, I would not avoid changing the scheme because we have one guy that is worth a $100 million dollars and he does not like it or does not fit. This whole situation is as much Haynesworth's fault as anyones. He had the opportunity to leave and he decided to take the money and stay.

I have no problem with switching to the 3-4 this year. I wish we would have traded a few players that did not fit the scheme, but the guys that are going to be retained are learning it and they will be better prepared in the future.

We were kidding ourselves this offseason thinking that we were contenders. If we tempered our expectations, we would not be in such an uproar right now. This is going to take time. I am more than willing to wait if they do it properly. Honestly, what other choice do I have?
 
I never felt as though the Skins would be contenders this season. However up until the last 2 games I felt they were headed in the right direction. Now I'm uncertain. There are alot of games yet to be played this season and who knows whats going to happen next season. Some say the earth will more or less end in December 2012...LOL so maybe thats a factor in the decision making. LOL Just kidding... thought the board could use a dose of off handed humor
 
Well, I would not avoid changing the scheme because we have one guy that is worth a $100 million dollars and he does not like it or does not fit. This whole situation is as much Haynesworth's fault as anyones. He had the opportunity to leave and he decided to take the money and stay.

I have no problem with switching to the 3-4 this year. I wish we would have traded a few players that did not fit the scheme, but the guys that are going to be retained are learning it and they will be better prepared in the future.

We were kidding ourselves this offseason thinking that we were contenders. If we tempered our expectations, we would not be in such an uproar right now. This is going to take time. I am more than willing to wait if they do it properly. Honestly, what other choice do I have?

The money thing I take issue with, we discussed this on the other forum, the fact is that Haynesworth was promised a certain amount of money TO SIGN, he signed , that 21 million dollar paymnet was his money simply by signing. if we were serious about getting rid of him we should have negotiated, instead we made our bed.

Now as for the change thats where we differ and thats ok, IMHO, Haynesworth was not the only player hurt by the scheme change just the most noticeable and the only 2 players who really benefitted were Rak (who I think would be just fine as a 4-3 end if schemed correctly) and Carriker (who we got off the junkpile for nothing and isnt exactly a world beater.)

Pleayers who were hurt by this change include three of our best players on defence, AC went from probowler to backup situational rush player, AH went from beast at 3tech to situational backup DT and Fletch went from making tackles for short gains to playing in deep coverage a lot and making the bulk of his tackles downfield. Jarmon hardly plays, how do we even judge how our guys have adjusted when this defence looks so bad?

now when I argued about this chnage one thing I was told was " even GB when they made the change took 8 games before they saw improvement" its been 8 games. truth is this team will not improve more than marginally because the issues are not fixable with the players we have.
 
Well, I have expressed my displeasure with Shanahan and especially Haslett. Many have suggested we need to be patient in this respect and some suggest the switch to a 3-4 could doom our D and Haslett.

Well, there is a scenario playing out in Cincinnati that could be to our advantage. If memory serves, Shanny was courting Mike Zimmer before the hiring of Haslett. Not sure how accurate that is, but what would you guys think about him being brought in to replace Haslett if our defense shows no progress, provided Lewis and company are fired in Cincy?
 
Been thinking about that the last couple of weeks - especially if Zimmer becomes available. I don't think Coach Shanahan dumps Haz after just one season, but you never know.

My inclination is to give Haz more time, but if we continue to see this defense struggling...
 
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I just dont see how being patient helps us on defence at all.

fact- almost none of our current front seven are 3-4 type players and if we stay in a 3-4 we will be trading them for cheap, ergo there is no point in teaching them our system BECAUSE THEY WONT BE HERE ANYWAY.

fact- if a 3-4 is going to be succsessful its almost always that way from the first season EVERY TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH CORRECTLY GOT BETTER IMMEDIATELY but those teams dumped resources into it AND GOT A GURU TO OVERSEE IT.

we are wasting time teaching this scheme to players who wont even be here and honestly thus far the scheme has been shown to be extremely flawed
haslett doesnt even know what hes doing,remenebr at the start of the year haslett got everyone excited by telling everyone we would run a 3-4 much like the steelers, but then he said our dline wouldnt two gap very often, yet what do the steelers run? that was a warning sign right there.
 
Hmm. I think we need some fact checking. Or at least fact defining. :cool4:

I just dont see how being patient helps us on defence at all.

fact- almost none of our current front seven are 3-4 type players and if we stay in a 3-4 we will be trading them for cheap, ergo there is no point in teaching them our system BECAUSE THEY WONT BE HERE ANYWAY.
Can a statement qualified with "almost none" really be taken as fact, brother? :)

Besides ...

Orakpo? Kemoeatu? Carriker? Wilson? Jarmon? None of these guys are "3-4 type players" or going to be here?

Henson? Riley? Blades? None of them pique your interest?

Another draft and FA period this coming spring to add more players specifically tailored to the 3-4 doesn't seem likely?

fact- if a 3-4 is going to be succsessful its almost always that way from the first season EVERY TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH CORRECTLY GOT BETTER IMMEDIATELY but those teams dumped resources into it AND GOT A GURU TO OVERSEE IT.
Examples? With "getting better," "dumping resources" and "guru" defined?

we are wasting time teaching this scheme to players who wont even be here and honestly thus far the scheme has been shown to be extremely flawed
We don't know that the scheme is flawed. We know there have been some ugly broken coverages and an uneven learning curve. Ten games is not even close to enough to determine if the sytem is "flawed" or we're just looking at issues with its components or implementation.

I'd say that was "fact" but I'd be overstating it. Call it a strongly held opinion. :)

haslett doesnt even know what hes doing,remenebr at the start of the year haslett got everyone excited by telling everyone we would run a 3-4 much like the steelers, but then he said our dline wouldnt two gap very often, yet what do the steelers run? that was a warning sign right there.
Haslett may or may not be a great defensive coordinator. I suspect he's not, and was probably the first to question his hire and back it with an objective look at his history. But it's hyperbole to say he doesn't know what he's doing.

Man was hired to convert a 4-3 to a 3-4. It was not his choice, it was his head coach's. His future HOF head coach's. He is working with what he inherited and with talent brought in to run the 4-3 over many years. There was an expectation it would take some time. It has.

It has also been about what we should have expected--inconsistent. Sometimes brilliant, sometimes awful. It has also contributed directly to several of the surprising 5 wins this 4-12 team has already compiled through its first ten games.

Oh ... and Haslet also didn't inherit the Steelers' personnel, which has been assembled over several years to run a very specific scheme.

And that is a fact.
 
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OM

- 32nd ranked defense...that's a "fact"

- fix the defense? how do you do this when you have to fix the offense first? they made a strategic mistake in switching from 4-3 to 3-4. yes take-aways have improved.....but this defense has dropped precipitously. any rebuild will be out of synch with the offense - the resources aren't there to do both simultaneously.

Colossal planning misjudgment.
 
Fact: Redskins have played 4 opponents (Eagles x2) in the top 10 of total offense, 5 in the top 15.

Fact: Redskins have played 6 opponents (Eagles x2) in the top 10 of points per game.

Fact: "ALMOST IMMEDIATELY" usually means at least one season. The Redskins currently have played less than one season.

Let's give it some time, folks...
 
OM

- 32nd ranked defense...that's a "fact"
So is 5-5.

So is your knowing that there are other measures by which a defense must be viewed to get a true picture.

- fix the defense? how do you do this when you have to fix the offense first? they made a strategic mistake in switching from 4-3 to 3-4. yes take-aways have improved.....but this defense has dropped precipitously. any rebuild will be out of synch with the offense - the resources aren't there to do both simultaneously.

Colossal planning misjudgment.
Disagree. But you are entitled to your opinion. :)

Shanahan/Allen were brought it to change a losing culture and lay the foundation for a team that can contend for championships for an extended period of time. The HOF coach brought in to do that believes the 3-4 is the way to go.

MY opinion is that is way too early--on the order of at least another full season--to proclaim whether or not the decision to switch to 3-4 was a mistake, misjudgment or anything else. Same with the decision to give Haslett the keys.

Overall, I'd say the returns on Shanahan/Allen are mixed so far.

As in 50-50.

As in 5-5.

Coming off 4-12, one could make a case they're ahead of schedule. But I'm not prepared to do that either ... it's too soon for that too.

The rush to judgment astonishes me sometimes.
 
So Om, with your early concerns about Haslett and a Defensive Coordinator like Mike Zimmer possibly coming available in the off-season, do you stick with Haslett and the struggles that accompany the move to the 3-4 we have experienced, or move on with a coach Shanahan wanted to pull away from Cincinnati in the first place?
 
Hard question, El.

Before I answer, will I get to sit in with Shanahan and Haslett when they go over game plans and run practice and review game film for all sixteen games after the season is over?

Or do I have to do it based on what I can see from the stands and/or television on game day and/or what I think I know based on what others, most of them not in those sessions themselves, tell me they think is happening?

Not trying to be coy. Just consistent.
 
Hmm. I think we need some fact checking. Or at least fact defining. :cool4:


Can a statement qualified with "almost none" really be taken as fact, brother? :)

Besides ...

Orakpo? Kemoeatu? Carriker? Wilson? Jarmon? None of these guys are "3-4 type players" or going to be here?

Henson? Riley? Blades? None of them pique your interest?

Another draft and FA period this coming spring to add more players specifically tailored to the 3-4 doesn't seem likely?


Examples? With "getting better," "dumping resources" and "guru" defined?


We don't know that the scheme is flawed. We know there have been some ugly broken coverages and an uneven learning curve. Ten games is not even close to enough to determine if the sytem is "flawed" or we're just looking at issues with its components or implementation.

I'd say that was "fact" but I'd be overstating it. Call it a strongly held opinion. :)


Haslett may or may not be a great defensive coordinator. I suspect he's not, and was probably the first to question his hire and back it with an objective look at his history. But it's hyperbole to say he doesn't know what he's doing.

Man was hired to convert a 4-3 to a 3-4. It was not his choice, it was his head coach's. His future HOF head coach's. He is working with what he inherited and with talent brought in to run the 4-3 over many years. There was an expectation it would take some time. It has.

It has also been about what we should have expected--inconsistent. Sometimes brilliant, sometimes awful. It has also contributed directly to several of the surprising 5 wins this 4-12 team has already compiled through its first ten games.

Oh ... and Haslet also didn't inherit the Steelers' personnel, which has been assembled over several years to run a very specific scheme.

And that is a fact.


Ok for starters go read the 3-4 thread I posted, I dont want to respost everything because its actually quite in depth, it details EVERY TEAM THAT CHANGED TO A 3-4, how they did it and the major changes it entailed.

as for starters, Carriker and Rak should be the only starters who arent replaced this offseason as they are the only ones in the front seven who havent been terrible in the 3-4. none of the other guys you mentioned have shown us anything at all, Kemo perhaps may come back from the achilles injury but thus far has not. Wilson is a back up nothing more and hasnt beaten out A GUY WHO CONVERTED FROM DTACKLE FFS. and Jarmon thus far has shown that he has talent but is far more fitted to a 4-3. as for everyone else, if I havent mentioned them its because its easier to list who would fit BECAUSE ALMOST NOONE IN THIS FRONT SEVEN DOES.

Blades is too small and slow (some small guys did really well inside in the 3-4 , Mills on the saints, fletch on the rams but they had crazy speed and instincts.) but they were the exception. Riley who knows he hasnt shown anything this year and neither has henson.


exactly my whole point OM is that if this defence needs at least one (and more likely two) free agency periods and drafts before it even becomes viable then how exactly is being patient helping? this defence should never have been installed and any decent DC could have told shanny this was a terrible idea. the reason most 3-4 conversions worked was because teams had the players to make it work, we didnt, its hard to imagine a team MORE built for a 4-3 than us,we have no depth at either OLB or DT both key spots for switching.

Getting better ? almost every 3-4 swap team had increases in all the key stats in its first year when teams made the switch without trying to hide it in a hybrid (the only hybrids who worked were the patsies and Ravens both of whome dedicated picks and free agents to making the swap. check my 3-4 thread for details.

Guru as in a coach who had demonstrated succsess in the 3-4 not a guy whose best defences were even top 10 and who took over a defence in pittsburgh that got worse the longer he was there (that does not bode well for us btw.)

You arent a DC so I will forgive you for not seeing that the scheme is flawed, you dont need multiple games to see if a scheme is flawed OM, I will give you a few examples. but the most glaring thing is that any good defence will get better as the season goes on because you have more film to watch of your opponent we have gotten worse much worse.

Much of Hasletts scheme involved playing soft zones combined with blitzing, this is not a bad way to generate turnovers however, when you blitz and have a zone behind it you leave holes, now how you cover those holes is how you determine if a scheme is sound, if you dont cover them it is not sound. I have seen us blitz a corner and rather than have an OLB or safety cover the hole, Ive seen receivers run free, thats not always a blown coverage or It wouldnt happen with regularity. I have also seen us blitz 2 linebackers and let slot and RB receivers WIDE OPEN in the short middle, if you do it once in a while it can confuse a young QB but against a solid team or even just a heady QB it will get you killed (texans game?)

now this part is something you can confirm with someone who knows defence OM, you dont always have to have a guy right in the hole to cover for someone blitzing, you just have to have someone in the passing lane and a safety over the top, BUT YOU HAVE BE ABLE TO DETERMINE WHERE THAT LANE WILL BE, ergo you watch film and see where the QB will throw when pressured. the Steelers are great at this, they have 2 OLB's who may not be pure cover guys but notice how they get picks? they are in position and the announcer often says "the QB didnt even see him and just threw the ball"

I think you have drunk the koolaid to be so excited about "this 4 win team" winning 5 games, I would except that the Dolphins took a 1-11 team and went to the playoffs while building a decent team. I expected improvement after we upgraded our offence (which was terrible) at several spots the main one being the Oline. Add a decent offence to last years defence and we make the playoffs! last year 4 wins after going through such an injury riddled season was not that bad, we never really got blown out except against a couple powerhouse teams and we lost how many games by less than a fg? this team was primed for a turnaround but we havent seen much thus far other than the team is playing with more passion on defence (and I attribute that to the agression in the scheme not the scheme) dont forget Blache was decent but not aggressive and he did misuse AH as well.

This year we have been relatively healthy (until last game) while last year we were the walking wounded.

as for what Haslett was given? a top five team defencively, BUT I agree,This team has one player who is very good in a 3-4 and plays at a probowl level in a 3-4 and one decent one who has bursts of decency and it has 2 who played at a probowl level and one who was a dmvp level in a 4-3 2 years ago and pretty damn good last year, and OM that is a FACT. lol
 
Maybe I was seeing things, but it sure looked like Kemo who knocked Vince Young out for the season...
 
Hard question, El.

Before I answer, will I get to sit in with Shanahan and Haslett when they go over game plans and run practice and review game film for all sixteen games after the season is over?

Or do I have to do it based on what I can see from the stands and/or television on game day and/or what I think I know based on what others, most of them not in those sessions themselves, tell me they think is happening?

Not trying to be coy. Just consistent.

Coy indeed, but I respect that. I know we have the luxury of sitting in the background without having full understanding of the dynamics behind the scenes.

But, like many fans on this site, you are fully capable of answering such a question. I am asking for nothing more than an opinion based on the information you've been given. You have stated concern with Haslett based on his past experience. Would you pull the trigger on a Defensive Coordinator you were trying to acquire before the season started, but couldn't? Or do you stick with Haslett missing the chance to have one of the games' better DC?

Just asking for your opinion here.
 
lol we have the luxury of sitting in the background, and they have the luxury of advanced film and meetings, yet somehow they missed on AC and AH when some fat guy on a couch in calgary alberta told them exactly what was gonna happen. thats worrisome to say the least. and no my predictions werent nebulous or typical throw crap at the wall and see what sticks, I was extremely detailed in what wasnt gonna work and why, so I dont imagine im the only smart guy on the planet who knew what was gonna happen.
 
Coy indeed, but I respect that. I know we have the luxury of sitting in the background without having full understanding of the dynamics behind the scenes.

But, like many fans on this site, you are fully capable of answering such a question. I am asking for nothing more than an opinion based on the information you've been given. You have stated concern with Haslett based on his past experience. Would you pull the trigger on a Defensive Coordinator you were trying to acquire before the season started, but couldn't? Or do you stick with Haslett missing the chance to have one of the games' better DC?

Just asking for your opinion here.
Straight answer is that no, I wouldn't replace Haslett after one year ... not based on what I can see from the cheap seats.

Once Shanahan committed to him in the first place, I think he also committed to giving Haslett a realistic shot at building the defense Shanahan wants from him. One year isn't enough, not even in a case where the new DC is NOT asked to switch a perennial 4-3 roster to a 3-4 on the fly.

By midseason next year I'll have a better sense for how much of this year's struggles had to do with Haslett, and how much simply to do with the cards he was dealt.
 
Ryman, I appreciate you taking the time to give us all a defensive lesson, but the truth is--with all due respect--if I have to choose between your interpretations of what you see on TV and what Mike Shanahan and Jim Haslett see 24/7/365 as coaches at the top of their profession, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the pros.

I have two big questions I intend to seek answers to over the next year or two.

1) Why Shanahan favors the 3-4 so strongly.

2) What he knew about Haslett that convinced him Has was the man for the job.

The rest of it--the implementation of the change personnel-wise; whether or not Haslet is at least above average in gameplanning, playcalling and in-game adjustments--we can talk about until we're blue in the face, but we'll still just be exchanging opinions based on probably less than 25% of the knowledge we'd need to fully assess any of it.

I used to love to do that when I first stumbled on message boards about 10 years ago. Today not so much. The forehead starts to get a little sore when you've beaten it against brick walls that long. :)
 

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