A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default Warpath Confidential: Is minicamp the end for Campbell?

    The Redskins are holding a minicamp before the draft. It’s a little unusual, but new coaches get an extra camp so the Redskins can spend one of their three just watching veterans. It’s not a bad decision. Then again, maybe it’s a last tryout for Jason Campbell to prove himself before the draft. *Washington apparently wants [...]

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    I hope JC comes into this camp swinging. I really hope he makes Shanny, think 'hey I have a descent QB here.' The more articles and junk that I read that involves how horrible JC is, the more I root for the guy. I just don't think he is that bad. I definitely think he is a starter in this league. If anyone can make him a great QB, it is Shannahan.

    He needs more stability. Even Peyton Manning has said that he could not endure what JC has.

    As for the camp, any new coach with a brain would take advantage of the extra camp before the draft, especially when the team they inherit was 4-12. It is not all about JC and the veterans. It is about every position on that field.
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    Veterans on this team need to emerge as leaders or they need to be released.

    Sometimes it seems that rookies and younger players are left to fend for themselves here, with little accountability in many cases.

    The one guy that turned out with no questions asked, Orakpo, has definite talent but he also had one of the few recognized leaders, London Fletcher, playing next to him.
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    James Madison

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    Quote Originally Posted by tr1 View Post
    And JC has had one of the most disruptive, self-serving players playing next to him: Clinton Portis. It's difficult to lead with a prima-donna who has the owner's ear dominating the emotion on the offense.

    I'm looking for a surprise pick at RB.
    This is a good point, and one reason I'm a little surprised Portis wasn't jettisoned with the rest early this month.

    Having said that, Campbell bears some responsibility as well. Bottom line is that it was a difficult situation, but leaders find ways to make difficult situations better, not contribute to making things work.

    My confidence and enthusiasm in Campbell was shaken last year quite a bit; I know it was a patchwork O-line, poor coaching at best, and every other excuse in the book was in play. I saw him try to step up, but it didn't really happen. I know, I know, every excuse and then some. Bottom line is that he missed some throws, missed some plays that would have made the team better, which ironically may lead to us being able to draft his replacement at number 4 instead of, say number 7 or 8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    ...My confidence and enthusiasm in Campbell was shaken last year quite a bit; I know it was a patchwork O-line, poor coaching at best, and every other excuse in the book was in play. I saw him try to step up, but it didn't really happen. I know, I know, every excuse and then some. Bottom line is that he missed some throws, missed some plays that would have made the team better, which ironically may lead to us being able to draft his replacement at number 4 instead of, say number 7 or 8.
    I am on the opposite side of this equation. I blamed much of the early losing on Campbell giving him no credit, whatsoever. By the 3rd game of the season, I clamored for his head! He would over throw receivers, sometimes the receivers would have to dive for a ball that if they had been hit in stride they would have had a TD, and I watched as he did not seem to have the "it" factor that a leader needs to take a team down the field and win a game late. Then I saw Todd Collins come in against the Chiefs and watched him make better throws, timed decisions and still get put on his arse as he looked about the same as Campbell.

    As the season progressed, I watched Campbell make the same errant throws and inability to bring the team back late in games, but his resolve, courage and toughness tell me he is serviceable as a starting QB in the NFL. Would it be nice to see the Redskins have the next Peyton Manning, Drew Brees or Tom Brady? Of course! But for now, we don't. We have Campbell.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Omniscient View Post
    ...If anyone can make him a great QB, it is Shannahan.

    He needs more stability. Even Peyton Manning has said that he could not endure what JC has...
    Nah! The same was said about coach Gibbs, Al Saunders and even Zorn (And now that Zorn is solely working with the QB's in Baltimore, I bet Flacco is improved this year). I doubt Shanahan can make Jason much better than good, not great and I would settle for a slightly better JC while we rebuild in the more urgent area of O-line. I don't think Shanahan has "made" anyone great, his only great one was already great.
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    I'm going to disagree with you. Look at Jay Cutler with Shanahan and then without. For that matter, Jake Plummer as well. I think Campbell makes a pretty big step under Shanahan. Plus rebuilding that O-line by itself will make Campbell better.
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    Nope. I'm with the Elephant on this one. Maybe JC improves enough to buy us a year, but he made too many errant throws and was missing the "it" factor. Hail mary's thrown out of bounds, 3rd down passes thrown into the ground.....that does not happen with a starting QB at this level. I'm over all the excuses.....he just hasn't shown that he can make the throws or the correct decisions.

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    I wonder why people never say "That WR didn't run the right route..." or "That OL missed his blocking assignment again".

    We all know that happened. But folks don't understand its just a piece of an entire offense. JC is a middle of the road starting QB with a bottom of the barrel supporting cast. I think with a good OL and decent WR's....he's a pretty good QB. Not a world beater...but I think there are only a handful of those guys in the league, and NONE in the draft.

    I hope we start building a strong foundation on the lines and if JC isn't improving, we look for a QB in future drafts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinsfan76 View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you. Look at Jay Cutler with Shanahan and then without. For that matter, Jake Plummer as well. I think Campbell makes a pretty big step under Shanahan. Plus rebuilding that O-line by itself will make Campbell better.
    Jay Cutler was not GREAT with anybody. Was he a good QB who showed tremendous talent. Yes! Great? No!

    The same goes for Plummer, he was better with Shanahan, I concede. But neither of those guys were great.

    Look, I think Shanahan will do some good with Campbell. I think he will put the surrounding cast around him placing him in a situation to succeed if he can. I think Jason Campbell is more than likely going to be the starter this season and perhaps next season. I think he will be a better QB. But he does not seem to possess the tangibles that makes a QB great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat View Post
    I wonder why people never say "That WR didn't run the right route..." or "That OL missed his blocking assignment again"...
    I could not agree with you any more when you suggest the line must be rebuilt before any QB in DC can be successful! At least I think that is what you were saying. The problem I have is that it appears that you are giving JC a pass on his faults because he did not have the supporting cast, ie...weak o-line and WR corps.

    Again, I concede the fact that his supporting cast is sub-par! But there were too many passes by JC that caused the receiver to stretch, dive or leap to make the catch eliminating any attempt to pick up extra yardage after the catch. How many simple fly patterns or stop and goes were overthrown with the receiver wide open or even underthrown giving the CB a chance to catch up? Rarely have I seen a receiver hit in stride by Jason Campbell, rarely!

    Is this a result of the receiver running the wrong route or JC being rushed? Sure. I would imagine that many were, but I saw JC, with time, make too many errant throws. I believe more often than not it was his fault and not a broken route and definitely made with time in the pocket or on the roll out.
    Last edited by Elephant; 03-21-10 at 03:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    Jay Cutler was not GREAT with anybody. Was he a good QB who showed tremendous talent. Yes! Great? No!

    The same goes for Plummer, he was better with Shanahan, I concede. But neither of those guys were great.

    Look, I think Shanahan will do some good with Campbell. I think he will put the surrounding cast around him placing him in a situation to succeed if he can. I think Jason Campbell is more than likely going to be the starter this season and perhaps next season. I think he will be a better QB. But he does not seem to possess the tangibles that makes a QB great.
    Agree completely. I'm a little hesitant to put too much faith in Shanny on this one. He did well with Plummer and Cutler, but it wasn't like either of them were top 5 QBs, or even on their way to becoming top 5. And he hand-picked them both, which is a little disturbing.

    Campbell will be better this year, imo, because of the emphasis Shanahan will place on the running game. Our run game was pathetic last year, and an improved O-line will help the run game, which will in turn take some pressure off Campbell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    I could not agree with you any more when you suggest the line must be rebuilt before any QB in DC can be successful! At least I think that is what you were saying. The problem I have is that it appears that you are giving JC a pass on his faults because he did not have the supporting cast, ie...weak o-line and WR corps.

    Again, I concede the fact that his supporting cast is sub-par! But there were too many passes by JC that caused the receiver to stretch, dive or leap to make the catch eliminating any attempt to pick up extra yardage after the catch. How many simple fly patterns or stop and goes were overthrown with the receiver wide open or even underthrown giving the CB a chance to catch up? Rarely have I seen a receiver hit in stride by Jason Campbell, rarely!

    Is this a result of the receiver running the wrong route or JC being rushed? Sure. I would imagine that many were, but I saw JC, with time, make too many errant throws. I believe more often than not it was his fault and not a broken route and definitely made with time in the pocket or on the roll out.

    Agree again. You're smart. Campbell didn't get tons of time last year to make plays, but when he had time, he didn't make the throws. I think he'll have even a little more time this year due to reasons stated above; the problem is that he flat misses throws. Either he doesn't see the open side of the field, or he just barely misses short or long, which leads to little YAC.

    Is he serviceable? Probably. Will he make a Pro Bowl now and again? Possibly. I just see him doing barely enough to remain in consideration for the starting job, which isn't a position I'm all that interested in being in for the next 5-7 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeSr619 View Post
    wasnt shanny known for his running backs more then his quarterbacks anyways? I remember you could put almost any back there and he would get 1000 yards. that and chop blocking linemen. i dont ever remember him getting credit for elway as he shouldnt have.

    Yeah, in my opinion, after talking and verifying with some Broncos fans, his O-line play was top notch. The line made the RB look better than they were (in some cases), for example Tatum Bell and Ruben Droughans.

    Having said that, I don't think that's a negative. If Shanahan can rebuild our O-line to that status, I'm definitely not complaining.
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    Navy Salisbury

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    It's a test for Campbell but also Colt Brennan.....

    If Brennan looks terrible in the mini, he might not make it to training camp.
    And why would the Skins cut Campbell if he looks bad?

    Seriously, cut Campbell and draft Jimmy Clausen at #4 and have no LT on this team to block for him.
    Heyer? Are you kidding me. Most of you here have questions on whether he should be the starting RT.

    Mike Williams? Is it ok for me to start laughing now?
    Will Robinson or Oldenburg? No experience, let's see them take on Demarcus Ware.

    Artis Hicks? Barry Sims? I mean c'mon, really.

    And if you say "Well, we could cut Campbell and play Grossman" well then expect Jason Campbell play but with more INTs and more likely to be injured and on IR by week 3. Then who starts?

    The fact is that whether you like Jason Campbell or don't like Jason Campbell, he'll be the starter (at least in week 1) b/c the best option to replace him would be drafting Clausen (IMO he's the only week 1 QB starter in this draft class) and then praying you have a good LT by then (not likely) or putting a guy like grossman or an oft injured, unknown factor like Brennan out there.

    My opinion, build up the O-line and find a guy to develop to be your starter in 2011 and stick with Campbell for at least one more season.
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    I'm no Campbell fan. I'm pretty much at the end of my rope with him, because I think he's gotten as good as he'll ever get.

    But honestly, can anyone name a QB that has gone through as much **** as this kid has? I respect him just for that alone
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    I think Campbell is a quiet leader that has the respect of many on the team. Portis attitude can help or destroy Campbell's effectiveness as a leader.

    In watching Campbell it just seemed like he was hesitant on throws due to worry about making a mistake. The great QB's seem to have this confidence that they will make the throw. Campbell seems to lack that confidence or whatever it is.

    I think Campbell has the physical tools to be great or at least very good, just not sure about the mental.
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    Quote Originally Posted by riggins44 View Post
    In watching Campbell it just seemed like he was hesitant on throws due to worry about making a mistake. The great QB's seem to have this confidence that they will make the throw. Campbell seems to lack that confidence or whatever it is.

    I think Campbell has the physical tools to be great or at least very good, just not sure about the mental.
    Do you think that would have something to do with learning under Gibbs 2.0? He was really afraid to take any kind of chances in his second stint with the team. He made several references to 'not turning over the ball.' Which QB's that take chances turn over the ball a lot more than Campbell does. I really think he pounded a '10lb no interceptions hammer' onto Campbell's cranium.

    Also, you need solid reciever play to be able take chances. Schaub knows if he throws it up for grabs, chances are Johnson is coming down with the ball. Same with Brady/Moss, Rivers/Jackson etc.... Campbell has not had that luxury.

    I think confidence also comes with being in the same system year in and out. Having to learn a new system every year can not be good for confidence because you feel unsure about where you going with the ball, where are your recievers going to be, are they going to be in the right place at the right time?

    Yes, I agree that Campbell is innaccurate at times when he has time. But, how often does he have time? I remember being quite mad at him during the middle of the season last year, especially the Denver game. If he was accurate that game, we would have destroyed Denver because they played absolutely terrible on defense. i know his stats say otherwise, but he played a fairly crappy game.

    Campbell is not without his faults. He is not Manning or Brady, but who is? Campbell needs a run game, he will get that with Shannahan. We can win with Campbell.

    Over the last ten years, the following 15 QB's have made the super bowl:

    Kurt Warner
    Steve McNair
    Trent Dilfer
    Kerry Collins
    Tom Brady
    Rich Gannon
    Brad Johnson
    Jake Delhomme
    Donovan McNabb
    Ben Roesthlisberger
    Matt Hasselback
    Peyton Manning
    Rex Grossman
    Eli Manning
    Drew Brees

    Out of that list, how many would you say are great/elite? I would say, as of right now 3 of them are elite (Brady, Warner, Peyton). 2 others are great and have the potential to be elite when it is all said an done (Brees, McNabb (I know he is not considered elite, but I think he is underrated for what he has had to work with).

    These are the only five guys on this list that I would take over Campbell, in their primes. What are the chances of coming up with one of those guys in the draft? Sure, if the Skins think Bradford or someone else is the next Peyton, then you do whatever it takes to grab him. However, the odds are stacked against that notion. If we build a solid team around him and keep some consitency in the system, then I think we will be a force. It does all start with getting the blocking there.

    One trend that is noticeable with these teams are the dominant run games, and the dominant defense/special teams play.
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    Imo, I like Clausen... the only problem is what are they going to do with JC ...? heck ...no teams have even given him a sniff.... you think that with five offensive cordinators come and gone the word is out he is never going to get it... I may be wrong but the guy seems to be out of his league can't read defenses, dumps the ball off to his escape too much ... holds the ball to long...I could go on and on...i think 5 years is enough time to develope something....get a real QB, 2nd round ...pick a OT ...there may even be a RFA that is picked up before TC.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Omniscient View Post
    Do you think that would have something to do with learning under Gibbs 2.0? He was really afraid to take any kind of chances in his second stint with the team. He made several references to 'not turning over the ball.' Which QB's that take chances turn over the ball a lot more than Campbell does. I really think he pounded a '10lb no interceptions hammer' onto Campbell's cranium.

    Also, you need solid reciever play to be able take chances. Schaub knows if he throws it up for grabs, chances are Johnson is coming down with the ball. Same with Brady/Moss, Rivers/Jackson etc.... Campbell has not had that luxury.

    I think confidence also comes with being in the same system year in and out. Having to learn a new system every year can not be good for confidence because you feel unsure about where you going with the ball, where are your recievers going to be, are they going to be in the right place at the right time?

    Yes, I agree that Campbell is innaccurate at times when he has time. But, how often does he have time? I remember being quite mad at him during the middle of the season last year, especially the Denver game. If he was accurate that game, we would have destroyed Denver because they played absolutely terrible on defense. i know his stats say otherwise, but he played a fairly crappy game.

    Campbell is not without his faults. He is not Manning or Brady, but who is? Campbell needs a run game, he will get that with Shannahan. We can win with Campbell.

    Over the last ten years, the following 15 QB's have made the super bowl:

    Kurt Warner
    Steve McNair
    Trent Dilfer
    Kerry Collins
    Tom Brady
    Rich Gannon
    Brad Johnson
    Jake Delhomme
    Donovan McNabb
    Ben Roesthlisberger
    Matt Hasselback
    Peyton Manning
    Rex Grossman
    Eli Manning
    Drew Brees

    Out of that list, how many would you say are great/elite? I would say, as of right now 3 of them are elite (Brady, Warner, Peyton). 2 others are great and have the potential to be elite when it is all said an done (Brees, McNabb (I know he is not considered elite, but I think he is underrated for what he has had to work with).

    These are the only five guys on this list that I would take over Campbell, in their primes. What are the chances of coming up with one of those guys in the draft? Sure, if the Skins think Bradford or someone else is the next Peyton, then you do whatever it takes to grab him. However, the odds are stacked against that notion. If we build a solid team around him and keep some consitency in the system, then I think we will be a force. It does all start with getting the blocking there.

    One trend that is noticeable with these teams are the dominant run games, and the dominant defense/special teams play.
    Out of that list, how many would you say are worst than JC. Even if most of these QBs aren't elite, they are at least above average to very good (save Grossman). JC in my mind is, at best average to above average, at worst inconsistant to mediocre.
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    Like I said, I would definitely take 5 QB's on that list, in their prime, over JC. Warner, Peyton, Brees, Brady, and McNabb.

    Honestly, we do not know if JC has hit his celing yet. The guy improves year in and out despite being battered, poor playcalling, and having to learn a new playbook every year. He has looked good when he has had the time. He does miss things, he is not perfect. In fact, he sucks at throwing slants. He will never be in the same breath as Peyton.

    Both Devin Thomas and Moss have made comments about the playcalling in recent years. They are excited about a system that will allow them to get open. Devin Thomas has even talked about Shannahans remarks about the playcalling last year. Playcalling will help Campbell.

    As far as him dumping the ball off...well if the recievers cannot get open in three seconds, he kind of has to. Yes, sometimes he does hold on to the ball a long time and should get rid of it quicker, but he has to throw it either away, or he is going to throw it into a tight pocket and possibly get it picked off, both of which he will get booed for. Even Zorn admitted not being able to throw downfield because of protection issues.

    "you think that with five offensive cordinators come and gone the word is out he is never going to get it" Whose word exactly? The only people I see trash Campbell on a consistent basis are Skins fans. Well, some members of the media, but not many. Also, where are those coordinators now? They are not doing anything substantial. Not the best group of guys to develop a QB IMO.

    Hypothetically, if JC had Shannahan the past five years, and this is the best he has played, then yeah it is time to grab another QB. I believe Shannahan can correct Jason's career.

    "the only problem is what are they going to do with JC ...? heck ...no teams have even given him a sniff" They could trade him if they needed to. There are teams looking for QB's that would be interested for the right price. However, the Skins are not going to trade him and throw him away when they don't have anyone to replace him with. It just doesn't make sense. If he was traded last year, who would replace him? Collins or Brennan. He has been the best option.

    The players we have heard from, defense and offense, are saying offensive line for this draft and I agree. We can win with a QB standing upright. We cannot win with a QB lying down.

    I believe we will draft a young QB. I just don't think it has to be with the fourth pick. After all of this, I believe Shannahan and Allen will make the best choice for this team. If it means grabbing another QB at four or above, then so be it. I am not JC's secret lover or anything.
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