If we think Haskins is the guy, then Gruden needs to go asap

Ax said:

There's a first time for everything.

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I've always liked you Ax, and always loved your passion and enthusiasm for this team. But there comes a time to be a realist as well. After watching the game Sunday, if you truly believe this team has a chance to do anything this year, you're lying to yourself. I'd absolutely love to see us shock the world and do what's never been done before. I want that to happen with every ounce of my soul. I just don't believe it is going to. We just don't have a good team, and we have a lot of capable opponents still ahead.

It's honestly starting to feel like your constant optimism isn't so much how you really feel, but so if it does happen, you can ride the "I told you so" train all the way through the offseason.

You're a pretty sharp guy. You can't truly believe we have a chance of going anywhere this season. I just don't buy that you believe it.

fansince62 said:

Winning is clearly not the whole point of NFL football. Making money is an obvious priority.

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And that's our main difference, my friend. I choose to just see it as a game I enjoy watching. Being played by my favorite team. And I hope every week, that they'll win.
It's that simple. "Winning Isn't Everything, It's The Only Thing".

I'm not going to lie: I fail to see the point of being a realist in the action of being a fan. Being a fan, by nature, is being unrealistic. It's dedicating your time to one team, and if your goal is to see winning...being realistic, if staying true to it, would be to not be a fan of the Redskins.

I'm with Ax that it's a choice. But I also see that some people take their enjoyment in the sport in different ways, and some people take joy in the hardline critique of the systems in play, versus enjoying the experience of being happy for the team's success, or potential success. Nothing wrong with either perspective, in my view...why so contentious about how somebody else enjoys the team?

And yes, I know this just looks like me saying "can't we call get along" I honestly don't see that much bile about it, but...I have a thing about logical flaws.

some of us know that a few wins this season merely keeps us mired in mediocrity. I think I have been pretty accurate in my calls, the simple truth is that we have been playing guys out of position, schemed poorly and havent found talent to fill the roster. we need to blow it up and we need to hope that allen succeeds in an actual rebuild

Shi no Tenshi said:

I'm not going to lie: I fail to see the point of being a realist in the action of being a fan. Being a fan, by nature, is being unrealistic. It's dedicating your time to one team, and if your goal is to see winning...being realistic, if staying true to it, would be to not be a fan of the Redskins.

I'm with Ax that it's a choice. But I also see that some people take their enjoyment in the sport in different ways, and some people take joy in the hardline critique of the systems in play, versus enjoying the experience of being happy for the team's success, or potential success. Nothing wrong with either perspective, in my view...why so contentious about how somebody else enjoys the team?

And yes, I know this just looks like me saying "can't we call get along" I honestly don't see that much bile about it, but...I have a thing about logical flaws.

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Your problem is how you define what it means to be a fan. The deeper problem is that, for better or for worse, we have seen sustained excellence for this team. The bar has been set like it or not. I'm a big fan of Redskins excellence. Anything less, after 20+ years of losing/waiting, is no longer acceptable. A reasonable argument can be made that one who does not expect and at some point demand a return to this Redskin greatness isn't a real fan - they accept the pillaging that has been going on, the horrific destruction, of what had been a a storied franchise that represented the very best. The ownership, GMs, coaches, and yes many players, have been systematically demolishing the very essence of what had once been a proud, respected professional football team. That is their legacy writ large.

Patience has ceased being a virtue. Real fans who cherish the legacy want it restored. They are tired of waiting. The team exists for them/us...not the other way around.

He doesn't have ‘a problem'. He, Ax, and others choose to root unequivocally and without giving way to disappointment. Lots of fans are able to do it.

I can't do it but I envy those who can still enjoy a rare good showing for what it is.

Doesn't make anyone ‘less of a fan'. We're all different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Boone said:

He doesn't have ‘a problem'. He, Ax, and others choose to root unequivocally and without giving way to disappointment. Lots of fans are able to do it.

I can't do it but I envy those who can still enjoy a rare good showing for what it is.

Doesn't make anyone ‘less of a fan'. We're all different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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So, you agree then, with my point that tehre are different ways of looking at what it means to be a fan.

Which would lead to what I was holding in reserve: why worry over someone else's definition? Let others express their "fandom" as they choose.

fansince62 said:

So, you agree then, with my point that tehre are different ways of looking at what it means to be a fan.

Which would lead to what I was holding in reserve: why worry over someone else's definition? Let others express their "fandom" as they choose.

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I would hope none of us play the 'real fan' card. As someone said on Twitter recently - if you're still a fan of the Washington Redskins after the past 20 years, it doesn't matter how you express that, you're a great fan. I totally agree with that. Some fans will root and believe and go to sendoffs and welcome homes at Redskins Park. Some will wear bags on their heads at games, or pay a pilot to troll the owner over a visiting team's stadium. Some will get moody and snarky and bitter (*raises hand and says 'here'*).

But they all want the same thing.

We can argue about how to get to that universal 'there'. But I can't imagine ever claiming one is a better fan than another sort. Good lord - it's like starting a fight with another concentration camp survivor over which countries captives have it worse And btw - not accusing you of doing any of that. If you're still here and hoping - you're a damn hero in my book

Boone said:

I would hope none of us play the 'real fan' card. As someone said on Twitter recently - if you're still a fan of the Washington Redskins after the past 20 years, it doesn't matter how you express that, you're a great fan. I totally agree with that. Some fans will root and believe and go to sendoffs and welcome homes at Redskins Park. Some will wear bags on their heads at games, or pay a pilot to troll the owner over a visiting team's stadium. Some will get moody and snarky and bitter (*raises hand and says 'here'*).

But they all want the same thing.

We can argue about how to get to that universal 'there'. But I can't imagine ever claiming one is a better fan than another sort. Good lord - it's like starting a fight with another concentration camp survivor over which countries captives have it worse And btw - not accusing you of doing any of that. If you're still here and hoping - you're a damn hero in my book

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Exactly Boone - we're all still here!

fansince62 said:

Your problem is how you define what it means to be a fan. The deeper problem is that, for better or for worse, we have seen sustained excellence for this team. The bar has been set like it or not. I'm a big fan of Redskins excellence. Anything less, after 20+ years of losing/waiting, is no longer acceptable. A reasonable argument can be made that one who does not expect and at some point demand a return to this Redskin greatness isn't a real fan - they accept the pillaging that has been going on, the horrific destruction, of what had been a a storied franchise that represented the very best. The ownership, GMs, coaches, and yes many players, have been systematically demolishing the very essence of what had once been a proud, respected professional football team. That is their legacy writ large.

Patience has ceased being a virtue. Real fans who cherish the legacy want it restored. They are tired of waiting. The team exists for them/us...not the other way around.

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I do believe you have conflated what the definition of the word "fan" is (what I was saying) and what it means to be a "fan" is (what you were saying). I'm simply stating that, by definition, a fan is not a realist. Being a fan is a hobby, used by some as escapism, some for enjoyment, but not something that's about being a realist in regard to it. You can be a person capable at being a realist, but in regard to being a fan, you are with the Redskins(or any other team) not generally for those reasons. Usually people call the "realist" fans bandwagon jumpers, cause they just want to always be with the winning side.

What being a fan means to individuals is wide and varied. Take your enjoyment as it is, whether it being contrasting items, or just enjoying the moment. I can't say I have high expectations of things myself, and it's shown in my engagement with the team, in chats, etc. I know I've honestly kind of checked out for a few years now, given everything they've had going on with the team, and I've had going on in my life. It just became not important enough to make time for.

I'm on the same page with most here, in that I think the team is in a deep hole caused by lack of accountability in the leadership level of the organization. It's permeated it to the point of infecting the staff/players, and Gruden was the type of guy who added to that dysfunction. I am not sad to see Gruden leave, as he was not the type of leader needed to actually correct things, and in a organization that is as much in need as managing up as the Redskins, that requires a stouter mind and grit than Gruden has.

I do like having Ax's perspective though, because I would like to again have a positive outlook of our team, I just want it justified by the performance on the field. The main problem I see with the analysis, however, is that none of us truly know anything that's going on, what decisions were being made...all we can do is second guess the results. Speculation can be a fun mental exercise, but I do wonder about those that do it so much that it leads them to high annoyance. I don't see the point there, but I don't have to: everybody gets their enjoyment their own way. I just question why people do things that aren't bringing them enjoyment.

fan (Websters): an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator.

One can be a devotee for many reasons. There's nothing inconsistent with being a fan and a realist. You are speakng to the instrumental purpose - the "why" one is a fan - which is separate from the state of being a fan.

Apologies in advance, not trying to be argumentative, but I just don't buy that "none of us know what is going on argument" any longer. There is empirical evidence that adds up each day, of each week, of each season, of each year. There are reports. More importantly there are observable patterns and known decisions. Don't confuse perfection with imperfect information. It's not a mental exercise - like anything it can be reduced to axioms, hypotheses, evidence and hypothesis testing - however informal. We know a great deal - the posters to this board provide a lot of information. I reject the either or choice. Whether it's El, Bulldog, Ry, B&G, AX or some other esteemed scholar of the game/fan, there's plenty of information to work with. Example: if the FO creates a contract situation that limits cap, one can deduce quickly what the options are looking at the cap savings of players and accepting the going market rate for players at various positions. One could even provide margin for folks who have a track record of spending irresponsibly on free agents! From that point, one can develop a reasonable idea on roster prospects for the near term. Are there black swan/"random" events? Sure. But that's not what one focuses on in this context. It's not a blind man's walk.

Anywho......if this is all about the feel good factor...and an effort to silence (or at the least quell) those who disturb the vibe....then that's a different conversation. I get the incentive. I would suggest that the ultimate independent variable in that respect is the team. They win, or they lose.

Boone said:

I would hope none of us play the 'real fan' card.

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I broke my arm 30 minutes before a playoff game and still attended the game. That makes me a better fan than most.

Elephant said:

I broke my arm 30 minutes before a playoff game and still attended the game. That makes me a better fan than most.

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Or possibly not the sharpest tool in the shed

Boone said:

Or possibly not the sharpest tool in the shed

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That's not funny.

Elephant said:

That's not funny.

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Not even a little bit?

That is a great story. And you're right. Doesn't get much more hard core than that. Only thing more badass than that would be to start watching the games again...ha!

Boone said:

Not even a little bit?

That is a great story. And you're right. Doesn't get much more hard core than that. Only thing more badass than that would be to start watching the games again...ha!

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It doesn't help I am not in the market, Ravens rule up here. I refuse to stream a game, don't know why...just can't do it.

But I backed myself into a corner...last year I said I wouldn't watch another Redskins' game until either Gruden or Allen were gone. After seeing the way Allen handled the off-season, drafting Haskins, and the way he's handled Trent Williams...I made the proclamation I would not watch another game as long as Allen is employed. I'll stick to it...Bruce Allen is a poison, I cannot watch anymore.

As for your joke about my intelligence...yeah, pretty funny. Ha....ha!

I don't begrudge anyone who decides not to watch. It's tempting for me. But it's a lifetime habit - tough not to tune in.

Boone said:

I don't begrudge anyone who decides not to watch. It's tempting for me. But it's a lifetime habit - tough not to tune in.

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I've gone through this a couple times over the last several years, the officiating got so bad one year I couldn't handle it anymore. Now? I can stomach it a little more, even the terrible game called last night in Green Bay.

So to turn it off is easier, the kids keep me occupied.

fansince62 said:

fan (Websters): an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator.

One can be a devotee for many reasons. There's nothing inconsistent with being a fan and a realist. You are speakng to the instrumental purpose - the "why" one is a fan - which is separate from the state of being a fan.

Apologies in advance, not trying to be argumentative, but I just don't buy that "none of us know what is going on argument" any longer. There is empirical evidence that adds up each day, of each week, of each season, of each year. There are reports. More importantly there are observable patterns and known decisions. Don't confuse perfection with imperfect information. It's not a mental exercise - like anything it can be reduced to axioms, hypotheses, evidence and hypothesis testing - however informal. We know a great deal - the posters to this board provide a lot of information. I reject the either or choice. Whether it's El, Bulldog, Ry, B&G, AX or some other esteemed scholar of the game/fan, there's plenty of information to work with. Example: if the FO creates a contract situation that limits cap, one can deduce quickly what the options are looking at the cap savings of players and accepting the going market rate for players at various positions. One could even provide margin for folks who have a track record of spending irresponsibly on free agents! From that point, one can develop a reasonable idea on roster prospects for the near term. Are there black swan/"random" events? Sure. But that's not what one focuses on in this context. It's not a blind man's walk.

Anywho......if this is all about the feel good factor...and an effort to silence (or at the least quell) those who disturb the vibe....then that's a different conversation. I get the incentive. I would suggest that the ultimate independent variable in that respect is the team. They win, or they lose.

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I'm a fan of discussion and rationalization, and finding shared understandings and differing perspectives. It's all good as long as nobody goes into internet attack mode

Being an "enthusiastic devotee" of this program would not be based on realistic expectations or a realism mindset, is all I'm saying. It's fine, it doesn't have to be, I have no expectations of that.

And I know there is tons of random data to process, many logical inferences to be made, etc. The problem is, there is a lot of declaration of other's intent going on, which is literally impossible for any of us to know. We can infer things, we can deduce things, but in the end, those are just different words for speculation. We have evidence that strongly suggests that their behavior conforms to our belief about them...but that's a naturally biased algorithm, and that bias has to be acknowledged. In acknowledging it...the logic follows that you don't actually know, just have strong evidence to support your theory.

Don't get me wrong, they are good theories! I enjoy coming here because of all the good theories. The only time I start saying much is when it becomes an "I know I'm right!" proposition, because none of us can claim that. We have no first hand knowledge, just leaks from unknown sources. Lots of good data, but sometimes the confidence level isn't high in it, and even with the decades of patterned behavior we see to give us the conclusion we get to our current theory of their behaviors...there are other possibilities we are ignoring because of our biases. To be honest in the deduction, you have to admit those, and that you could be completely wrong because of factors outside your knowledge.

Finally: I would never try to silence anybody. I will, however, offer up an alternative thought process And for all I enjoy his presence, I do think Ax has a lot of happy pills going into his system regarding this team, but I don't begrudge him for it. I do always hope people continue being critical, as it is interesting to read all the different takes on the data being put forth. I'll just say something on occasion when I see people being so convinced they are correct that they stop accounting for their biases

Happy pills? I see it as keeping myself grounded in certain realities. After all, reality is for people who can't handle drugs.

As for the realities, I'll list some.

1. I enjoy watching football being played by my favorite team. The Washington Redskins.
2. Nothing I say, or do, can affect who owns them, runs them, coaches them, etc...
3. That has been, and always will be the case.
4. Any given Sunday. Therefore...

Like Andy Dufresne, I hope. Always hope.
"Remember, Redskins fans, Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

So, just like Andy, I'll keep crawling through whatever shit filled pipe I have to. Because I can hack it.
Doesn't mean I like it.