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  1. #41

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    Not messin with ya Boone: but you keep asserting QB is our biggest need. I think that's debatable. I'm certain it needs to be qualified by:

    1. Context. If you are talking draft and a high pick I would reword to "our biggest need is a near certain top tier QB". This franchise has so horribly gooned up the QB position every year that the bar must be set higher - especially in a draft that is not highly regarded for QBs. There is that saying about drafting need over best available.

    2. Timing. It's only the highest need if the goal is to march into the playoffs this season. If adding all the tools/depth needed to enhance QB success is the goal, then the priorities change. I fall in the latter group - especially with a better QB crop in 2020.

    3. Talent or Performance? Rosen cannot be viewed as another untested collegiate product. What is it in his abilities and how they are applied on the field that warrant the risk of trading a first rnd pick? i.e., neglecting other positions

    4. Why have so few teams expressed interest, thus far, in Rosen?

    Maybe the guy is the second coming and my limitted understanding of the complex position blinds me from seeing the potential. I just believe the Skins have gone down the road for years (with McLovin exception) of building from the skill positions inward - and it never works. We have the makings of an upper tier d-line. I'ld like to see the team go all out and field a dominating defense - most ready unit on the team to advance to that echelon. Reinvigorate the o-line, find a receiver or two. The aperture widens at that point for the quality of QB needed to move into at least the playoffs.

    In the end, I suppose it doesn't matter. What "could have been" doesn't carry much weight. BruDan are going to apply their decision calculus regardless of the kind of team any of us would like to see. IMO, drafting need in the first round, especially with a subpar QB class, is a mistake.
    In a nutshell, we're just going to have to agree to disagree (on nearly every point you've made). In no particular order... unless you HAVE a QB who is a true NFL starter, then QB is absolutely your biggest priority. It has to be. You've heard the adage that teams that 'have 2 QBs have no QBs'. That's exactly where we are.

    The obvious caveat to making this kind of deal (which I've pre-stated) is that you only do it if you believe Rosen has the talent and ability to be that kind of player. Lots of teams believed he was last year. What's changed? A year as starter on literally the worst team in the league? He was not a disaster last year - he played like a rookie on a really bad team. Some of the best QBs in NFL history have done exactly that. You're right - he's not untested, we have some film on him. Watch it I'm not arguing that none of the draft available QBs this year will be good or great QBs. We don't know. Nobody knows. I'm just saying that Rosen, after one okay season on a terrible team, is no more 'risky'.

    What we do know is that he's got great mechanics, is very smart, and throws a beautiful ball. We haven't had a guy like him in a long while. If we can get him for the equivalent of what he'd have cost last year (or better yet - less), it is literally a no-brainer.

    We have no idea who has 'expressed interest'. There are even reports out there that the Cards might hold onto Rosen. But this year is a little different in the NFL, in that most teams have their QB situation set.

    And as far as your sense that no matter what the Redskins do at QB, it isn't going to work - well, I have no reply to that. Something has to work out eventually. And as far as that attitude goes, if you believe that, there's no sense in being a fan. Because if the Redskins are doomed and can't have nice things - ever - then they will never ever win anything again. Because without a very good player under center, an NFL team is going nowhere.

    I saw you say in another post how sick you were of the Redskins. I get it. But I'm actually getting excited as this is a year where we have all of our picks, the Rosen possibility is out there, and we may even be able to snag an impact FA or 2 despite being somewhat crippled by Smith's salary. I know that Ax and you and a lot of people don't believe Gruden can turn this around and that he's not much of a coach. I think that's a little unfair given the hand he has been dealt the past 3 seasons and I still believe he can win longterm if we stick with him. All of the above - just one more uneducated fan's sense of things.
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  2. #42

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I know that Ax and you and a lot of people don't believe Gruden can turn this around and that he's not much of a coach. I think that's a little unfair given the hand he has been dealt the past 3 seasons and I still believe he can win longterm if we stick with him.
    My criticisms of Gruden include his entire tenure. Not just the last 3. Many of his issues have remained intact from day one. He's no better at leadership/clock management/in game adjustments than he was the day he was hired.

    Sure, if we keep him long enough, the Moon could enter the 7th house, and Jupiter could align with Mars. Of course, lots of people predicted greatness for his namesake, Norval Turner, when he was given the keys to a fully gassed, souped up Maserati out in San Diego. And he drove it off a cliff.

    So, for the sixth year, I'm hoping he will prove me wrong. But I'd be a blooming idiot to bet a nickel on it.

    Hell, average, would be a giant step forward for him. IMHO.

    As to the QB, I'm only concerned with what we have, today. And that's Colt.

    Everything else is speculation.

    I just want to win. I don't really care who the coach, or QB is. Though I'm sure there are those whom I'd find it almost impossible to root for.
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  3. #43

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    My criticisms of Gruden include his entire tenure. Not just the last 3. Many of his issues have remained intact from day one. He's no better at leadership/clock management/in game adjustments than he was the day he was hired.

    Sure, if we keep him long enough, the Moon could enter the 7th house, and Jupiter could align with Mars. Of course, lots of people predicted greatness for his namesake, Norval Turner, when he was given the keys to a fully gassed, souped up Maserati out in San Diego. And he drove it off a cliff.

    So, for the sixth year, I'm hoping he will prove me wrong. But I'd be a blooming idiot to bet a nickel on it.

    Hell, average, would be a giant step forward for him. IMHO.

    As to the QB, I'm only concerned with what we have, today. And that's Colt.

    Everything else is speculation.

    I just want to win. I don't really care who the coach, or QB is. Though I'm sure there are those whom I'd find it almost impossible to root for.
    All fair enough. One thing I don't get is your belief that Colt McCoy is an acceptable QB. I *like* Colt. He is a great guy by all appearances and he plays hard when he's out there. But he simply isn't able to stay healthy, takes a ton of risks when he is out there, and is very inconsistent. He's not an NFL starter. He never has been and he never will be.

    We are not a playoff threat with him as our starter. So there's literally no logical rationale for going with him unless we are giving up on the playoffs from the outset.

    If you don't think that Gruden can 'coach up' a QB (again, he certainly seemed to be able to grow Kirk Cousins), the last thing you want to do is put an athletically marginal talent who is injury prone out there as the season starter. Makes no sense.

    For God's sake - we need a young potential franchise QB out there guys. And the sooner the better.
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  4. #44

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, you misconstrue, my brother.

    This is the "Week one starting QB thread".
    Colt, is the only guy on the roster that currently qualifies. (Smith has broked up leg)

    No vet FA will know more about the vaunted Gruden offense by week one.
    Neither will a rookie.

    That's why, in this thread, I say, Colt. Week one.
    And yes, as I stated last year, with better surrounding teammates, and if he can stay healthy, we could win with Colt.
    Just like you say, if not for injuries, and if we stick with him 482 years, we can win with Gruden.

    As for Stat Boy, **** him eternally.
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  5. #45

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    The chances of Gruden taking us to the Promised Land far surpass the odds that Colt McCoy can be a sustainable starting QB. Setting aside the parameters of the thread, if Colt McCoy starts for us to open the season (which may be likely no matter who else we bring in, for the reasons you stated), what's the plan once he's injured in Week 4?

    Do you really want to see more of Josh Johnson under center?

    I don't.
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  6. #46

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    One other sidebar comment.

    A lot of Skins fans cynically bitch that 'the Redskins will try to make some splash moves this off season' to distract a beleagured fanbase from our on-the-field ineptitude and dampen some of the uproar over Bruce Allen remaining in the GM position.

    Me? I'm excited as hell that the team might make some bold moves to add serious talent and try and get the train moving in the right direction again.

    What do fans prefer? They'd rather the team stick with the status quo? Would we prefer the usual approach of bringing in a bunch of discount marginal players via free agency and draft nothing but linemen?

    At some point - you have to be bold (ask the Rams and Chiefs how that's working out for them?) and be willing to focus some serious attention to those sexy skill positions if you really want to have a chance to win.

    Fans want it both ways. They are going to bitch about ANY move the Redskins make until moves prove to have been good ones. On the other hand, you really can't incessantly scream about how doomed we are, and then concurrently criticize the team for making creative moves in order to shift the team's momentum.

    We've screamed for change. It's clear the GM and HC aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So the best we can hope for is the team going after better talent anywhere they can find it.

    *rant over*
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    How big will our highest offer be for Josh Rosen?
    We all agree(I think), that a 3rd rounder is acceptable, but I doubt that Arizona will go for this. I hope I am wrong.
    I am pretty sure none of us want to give up that 15th pick.
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  8. #48

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    The chances of Gruden taking us to the Promised Land far surpass the odds that Colt McCoy can be a sustainable starting QB. Setting aside the parameters of the thread, if Colt McCoy starts for us to open the season (which may be likely no matter who else we bring in, for the reasons you stated), what's the plan once he's injured in Week 4?

    Do you really want to see more of Josh Johnson under center?

    I don't.
    No, I don't either. I know, and agree that we need a QB. Hell, we need 2, really.

    I'm just not currently that into whatever speculation about QB's X, Y, or Z, that might wind up here.
    I love reading everyone elses opinions. So please, keep them coming.

    Whoever wears the uniform, is my guy.
    None of the vet possibilities are in uniform.

    As for the draft, I'm fine with going OL early. And then doing whatever it takes to get the Rypien kid. Whom I will affectionately call, Bert, unless, and until, we land him.
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  9. #49

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solitary Man View Post
    How big will our highest offer be for Josh Rosen?
    We all agree(I think), that a 3rd rounder is acceptable, but I doubt that Arizona will go for this. I hope I am wrong.
    I am pretty sure none of us want to give up that 15th pick.
    I'd be perfectly fine with giving up the 15th pick for him. He's a very talented QB who will be 22 this year. It's a no-brainer. If he were in this draft instead of last year's, he'd almost unquestionably be the 2nd QB taken.

    Why would Arizona take less than a 1st round pick for him?
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  10. #50

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    No, I don't either. I know, and agree that we need a QB. Hell, we need 2, really.

    I'm just not currently that into whatever speculation about QB's X, Y, or Z, that might wind up here.
    I love reading everyone elses opinions. So please, keep them coming.

    Whoever wears the uniform, is my guy.
    None of the vet possibilities are in uniform.

    As for the draft, I'm fine with going OL early. And then doing whatever it takes to get the Rypien kid. Whom I will affectionately call, Bert, unless, and until, we land him.
    Well, I love that about you <3

    Whatever is going to happen is going to happen. My preference? Get Rosen now! And then draft Brett Rypien as an insurance policy if he's still there in the 3rd round.
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I'd be perfectly fine with giving up the 15th pick for him. He's a very talented QB who will be 22 this year. It's a no-brainer. If he were in this draft instead of last year's, he'd almost unquestionably be the 2nd QB taken.

    Why would Arizona take less than a 1st round pick for him?
    We have some wiggle room here.
    The whole buy low sell high concept can work in our favor. Statistically, he was bad. Not sure if it will help when other teams come to the negotiating table, but I think we can escape with a 2nd round pick. Maybe we throw in a player to sweeten the deal.
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  12. #52

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    In a nutshell, we're just going to have to agree to disagree (on nearly every point you've made). In no particular order... unless you HAVE a QB who is a true NFL starter, then QB is absolutely your biggest priority. It has to be. You've heard the adage that teams that 'have 2 QBs have no QBs'. That's exactly where we are.

    The obvious caveat to making this kind of deal (which I've pre-stated) is that you only do it if you believe Rosen has the talent and ability to be that kind of player. Lots of teams believed he was last year. What's changed? A year as starter on literally the worst team in the league? He was not a disaster last year - he played like a rookie on a really bad team. Some of the best QBs in NFL history have done exactly that. You're right - he's not untested, we have some film on him. Watch it I'm not arguing that none of the draft available QBs this year will be good or great QBs. We don't know. Nobody knows. I'm just saying that Rosen, after one okay season on a terrible team, is no more 'risky'.

    What we do know is that he's got great mechanics, is very smart, and throws a beautiful ball. We haven't had a guy like him in a long while. If we can get him for the equivalent of what he'd have cost last year (or better yet - less), it is literally a no-brainer.

    We have no idea who has 'expressed interest'. There are even reports out there that the Cards might hold onto Rosen. But this year is a little different in the NFL, in that most teams have their QB situation set.

    And as far as your sense that no matter what the Redskins do at QB, it isn't going to work - well, I have no reply to that. Something has to work out eventually. And as far as that attitude goes, if you believe that, there's no sense in being a fan. Because if the Redskins are doomed and can't have nice things - ever - then they will never ever win anything again. Because without a very good player under center, an NFL team is going nowhere.

    I saw you say in another post how sick you were of the Redskins. I get it. But I'm actually getting excited as this is a year where we have all of our picks, the Rosen possibility is out there, and we may even be able to snag an impact FA or 2 despite being somewhat crippled by Smith's salary. I know that Ax and you and a lot of people don't believe Gruden can turn this around and that he's not much of a coach. I think that's a little unfair given the hand he has been dealt the past 3 seasons and I still believe he can win longterm if we stick with him. All of the above - just one more uneducated fan's sense of things.
    Boone: my point is that the driver in all of this in terms of the correct (or better) moves to make is the long-term plan....the controlling vision. The vision informs the how and the when. I believe the Skins FO is myopic and mistakenly thinks the roster is closer to being on the cusp of competing for playoffs and championships than it really it is. I also think much of their vision is driven more by financial considerations than a coherent long-term strategy. Finally, I believe this is the same FO for many years and the same owner for almost a quarter century who are completely out-classed by other FOs and simpluy aren't as adept at building and sustaining an upper tier organization and roster. I'm not fixated on the coach - I believe the root cause of failure has always laid in the FO. After all this time, we must lean heavily into the idea that Dan Snyder simply cannot transfer whatever it is that made him a success in marketing into the completely different domain of football; or, perhaps, it's precisely that he is good at marketing for his football business but incompetent when it comes to the actual business of building an excellent product.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solitary Man View Post
    How big will our highest offer be for Josh Rosen?
    We all agree(I think), that a 3rd rounder is acceptable, but I doubt that Arizona will go for this. I hope I am wrong.
    I am pretty sure none of us want to give up that 15th pick.
    I don't give them the 15th...make someone else pay, or let the Cards go into the season with Murray and Rosne and see how that goes.

    The 3rd round pick with a 6th or 7th is more than enough. I think the Cards realize they don't have a lot of leverage and would be surprised if Rosen gets traded for anything more than a very low 2nd round, the Patriots maybe? Or a 3rd round with a player or a late round pick, maybe even a 4th next year.
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  14. #54

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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.








    The hurt...please make it stop??

    I feel like we as Redskins fans are at the bottom of the well and Bruce and Dan keep telling us "It rubs the lotion on it's skin and puts it back in the basket"
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    What it’s worth, plenty of Vikings wanted to keep him vs signing Kurt.
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ntotoro View Post
    What it’s worth, plenty of Vikings wanted to keep him vs signing Kurt.
    And, they were right.
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    After thinking about this for a couple of days, I'm not upset about the Keenum trade as I was when I first heard about it. One of the things that changed my mind is the money aspect of it. I still think they need to get a young QB on this team to build for the future. This is another band-aid for the QB position. Having a long term strategy would do a lot of good. I know with this front office that's not the way they operate, but that's not going to stop me from saying this is what is needed.
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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    One other sidebar comment.

    A lot of Skins fans cynically bitch that 'the Redskins will try to make some splash moves this off season' to distract a beleagured fanbase from our on-the-field ineptitude and dampen some of the uproar over Bruce Allen remaining in the GM position.

    Me? I'm excited as hell that the team might make some bold moves to add serious talent and try and get the train moving in the right direction again.

    What do fans prefer? They'd rather the team stick with the status quo? Would we prefer the usual approach of bringing in a bunch of discount marginal players via free agency and draft nothing but linemen?

    At some point - you have to be bold (ask the Rams and Chiefs how that's working out for them?) and be willing to focus some serious attention to those sexy skill positions if you really want to have a chance to win.

    Fans want it both ways. They are going to bitch about ANY move the Redskins make until moves prove to have been good ones. On the other hand, you really can't incessantly scream about how doomed we are, and then concurrently criticize the team for making creative moves in order to shift the team's momentum.

    We've screamed for change. It's clear the GM and HC aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So the best we can hope for is the team going after better talent anywhere they can find it.

    *rant over*
    In response to the rant:

    1. That's a strawman argument. It only offers two options.

    2. Empirically, the vocal group of dissatisfied Skins fans hold the upper hand. It is manifestly obvious and easily supportble to establish that the Skins franchise has enjoyed comparatively very little success overall since DS took over the reigns - and most certainly no sustained success. It's a franchise with no vision. No identity.

    3. Being bold is one thing. Being repetitive is another. This is a poor QB crop compared to next year's and other years. In my mind, selecting the third or fourth QB is almost a guarantee of 4-5 years of development **ll/mediocrity followed by yet another QB search. I'm ok with a 3rd or 4th round QB since that enables the Skins to address the talent gap directly, up-front, in a draft with quality DL, edge rushers, TEs, and some OL. There are also enough receviers with size/speed/track record to land one in a latter round. Daniel Jones' stock has fallen like a rock - and it aint cuz of the combine. The combine is a promo tool used by the NFL to generate yet more money and stoke fan interest during down time in the schedule. These GMs and scouts know who has the real potential at this point from an athletic point. The combine gives teams a chance, I guess, to question these players to weeed out the head cases - but there have been obvious failures even in that department (see Ryan Leaf, Johnny Manziel, etc.).

    It's about strategy and vision Boone. To me, buiding a stronger roster in a draft where the pool of talent is stronger in areas the Skins need is smarter than freaking out and buying whatever is left on the QB shelf. Is there probablity in all of this? Yup. But, just seems to me that the odds are more favorable to ramp up a roster that has the foundation for moving from ok/good to really good (e.g., D-line) or has some of the needed elements (e.g., o-line) while working some of the skill positions (e.g., WR, TE, S) through a combo of FA and TE. Going QB early for a dubious product will cost resources no matter how you cut it - including opportunity cost.

    I simply happen to believe that going with Keen/Colt backup, perhaps drafting a Rypien/Stick, building out the roster that has some glaring gaps and then spending the house in the 2020 draft has the better odds of succeeding in the long-run.

    As for Gruden. I recognize your support. I tend to fall into the camp that he has demonstrated a pattern of being outcoached and not in control - as well as making the wrong decisions too often.

    btw...I do believe one of the BGO policies (overtly expressed or not) is not to attack fan loyalty when there is disagreement. There is a point-of-view that the best fans aren't blindly loyal but hang in there, non-championship season after the next, demanding, seeking, pushiung for better/the best. This all strikes me as a chicken/egg argument. What comes first: poor football or vocal fan dissatisfaction/empty seats?
    Last edited by fansince62; 03-10-19 at 09:52 AM.
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    Default Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Thanks for the thoughts Al. I really believe your last point is more perception than reality. On one level, the idea that only positive posters are welcome or encouraged is a little laughable. That list includes Ax, Docsandy, Knightingale, and, occasionally me? Where are all of the others, lol?

    I believe the exact opposite can be true and if that’s not been made clear, or reinforced over time, shame on me. In every aspect of life, the loudest critics, complainers, and detractors are often the most passionate. You can’t be upset if you are ambivalent or don’t care. The anger and frustration stems from being let down and disappointed over and over and over again. We, as fans, almost universally understand what the root cause of our woes is and there’s no question who is accountable for them.

    My guess is that one thing that lends to the perception we favor positive takes over others on this site is that in the face of mass negativity I frequently try and be a voice of positivity. That’s not necessarily because I always personally feel that way. Rather it’s a reflection of my belief that we could always use a little more balance here, especially when the majority of takes in recent years have been decidedly cynical. Even I can’t sustain this at all times. No one was any more beleaguered than I was at the end of last year. But I mean, the site is called ‘A Burgundy and Gold Obsession’, not ‘A Burgundy and Gold Infuriation’ I do my best, as much as possible, to offer a positive view, if only to remind us that good things are still within the realm of possibility. I don’t know if that’s right or wrong, it’s just something I believe should be said.

    The other thing that occurs (which I think is just an unavoidable and unfortunate tendency on Internet forums) is that when an owner chimes in, that take is somehow viewed as ‘site policy’ or that we’re trying to direct the conversation - which is never the intention. I’m one of the most prolific posters on the site. But my opinions are only that, and certainly no more valid or weighty than anyone else’s. I wish the other staff posted more, since their negativity and healthy skepticism would dwarf any ‘pie in the sky’ optimism I put out there.

    So in a nutshell, we absolutely respect every perspective, and if I fail to communicate that in the tone of my posts, that’s on me alone and has nothing to do with the site or what we believe we are about.

    And just to be clear, my self-admitted ‘rant’ was sparked by the (by any standard) ridiculous and angry outcry on Twitter after the Skins traded for Case Keenum. The snark and criticism and loud outcry voiced by the majority of Skins fans has been nothing short of ludicrous. I’m fine with slamming the Skins and they often deserve every bit of the criticism heaped upon them. But when fans reach a point where they neither are able nor even desire to view actions with any sort of objectivity or fairness, to me that doesn’t warrant a whole lot of respect and I’m going to personally call them out on it. That’s just how I personally feel.

    The irony of this conversation is that it was sparked by Twitter wars. I wish we had that kind of energy (albeit negative and often anger-driven) here to be honest.

    Sorry again if I’ve made you or others feel unwelcome as in terms of how I feel about everyone here nothing could be further from the truth.


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    Default Re: Week one starting Qb for the redskins. Pick it.

    Boone...that was a sidebar comment on my part. Not really intended to provoke you or anyone. Kinda inherent in all of this that critical outlook is gonna outweigh the sanguine one after all these years of turmoil and non-championship quality football. To be honest...it was a throw-away thought.

    I am serious as a heart-attack, however, in doubting the wisdom of a first round QB selection. We all understand there's no driver at the wheel now. I just don't want to perpetuate the problem by going for third or fourth best. Right now, I'd rather go for the best at some of these other gaps on the roster.
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