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Why So Down on Gruden?

Boone

The Commissioner
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I've seen a lot of (what I consider) very negative assessments of Jay Gruden recently. As much as possible, if you fall into the camp that wants to see Gruden gone, I'd like to hear some non-emotional rationales as to why you think Gruden can never get the Redskins back to glory, or at least to perennial playoff team status, and want him gone.

Personally, for those of you who have seen enough of Gruden, I find the timing of that conclusion curious? The Redskins are coming off perhaps their best draft in decades (my opinion) - and I believe Jay had a significant hand in that - and probably have one of their most talented and promising rosters in a long while.

I cleary fall into the opposite camp when it comes to Gruden. The last thing we need is to blow things up and start over. It's all we've done for 25 years and that approach has been an unmitigated disaster. You look at the perenially good competitive teams - and what they don't do is shed their head coach every 2-4 years. For that reason alone - short a couple of terrible seasons, I'm in favor of staying the course and not blowing it up.

Here's my attempt at a non-emotional good/bad assessment of Jay Gruden as a Redskins Head Coach:

The Good:

1. Gruden is independent. From the beginning of the Snyder era, we've bitched about the head coach getting undermined and steamrolled by the owner. That has not been the case with Gruden. He decided early on that RG3 could not be a long-term starter and he did something about it. He did it despite knowing what the org had invested in that gamble, and he did knowing Snyder was having Rob out to Snyder family BBQs every weekend. Gruden's got balls. I like that.

2. I believe Gruden has a 'football mind', is an 'X's and O's' guy, and that the players respect his knowledge and experience. I think he knows what it takes to win consistently and is in command of the lockerroom and players. Some call him a 'player's coach' and yeah, he likes to kid and keep it relaxed, but I don't think there's any question about who's in charge of our lockerroom.

3. Gruden is still young and if he can turn the corner and take it to the next level (yes - it's an 'if' as would likely be the case with any coach we'd replace him with), we could be set for years and years.

4. Gruden is an offensive genius. He gets a lot of criticism for a pass happy offense, perhaps well-deserved, but his pass happy offense is a thing of beauty with the right personnel. We've scored more than enough points during his tenure to make the playoffs every year. If we can get our defense to the same level as our offense (and I believe we are making progress in that direction), we will become a perennial playoff threat.

5. Gruden's teams have fought and not given up. Even when Gruden's teams have *seemingly* been out of contention, they have not mailed it in. They've played hard and fought down the stretch. That's a positive reflection of the HC's mentality.

6. Gruden clearly doesn't seek out or tolerate drama. We take this for granted, but given the ridiculous dramafest that comprised most of the Shanahan and Zorn years, we shouldn't.

7. Gruden loves being the head coach of the Washington Redskins. As far as I can tell, even through the tough times, Gruden is committed to being the HC of this team. He wants to be here. I like that in my head coach.


The Bad:

1. Well - we've made the playoffs once in 4 years. We were last in the division his first year, and third in the division two other years. We were close to a playoff spot in 2 of those seasons. But we all know close doesn't count. Based on results alone, despite winning some games, you can't argue Gruden's gotten it done to date.

2. The run game. I've been slow to get on board with this criticism, because I do believe the 'it's a passing league' characterization of the NFL. But looking at some stats of the most common playoff teams over the past decade recently, you can't argue with the data. Teams that make the playoffs most often have a top 10 running game. It may not be the most important factor, but the numbers indicate without that top 10 rushing ability, you aren't going to consistently make the playoffs. We haven't and we haven't. That's all on Gruden. I would assume Gruden himself understands this - hence, the drafting of Guice this offseason.

3. Game management. Gruden still makes too many in-game mistakes for a 4 year head coach. Not enough urgency in the 2 minute drill or at the end of games. Poor use of timeouts. Failing to maintain late leads that should allow us to secure a win. Curious playcalls at crucial moments. Penalties that, while not directly the fault of the HC, ultimately have to lie at his doorstep. He's had his share of all of these at times.


My positives list is a lot longer than my negative one and that makes clear where I stand. Gruden is a solid NFL coach. No - it's true - he hasn't made the Skins a perennial playoff team. Not yet. He has been an average to (on a good day) above average NFL Head Coach. But I think he can be a lot more than that. I know some of you will point to the fact that this HC or that HC came into a town (Philly for example) and 'turned them around in one season'. It does happen. But Gruden has had some unique hurdles during his 4 years that have made our 'turn around' tougher. He inherited a dysfunctional team and franchise and a QB who was doomed to fail. He dealt with that decisively. He had to rely on a very talented young QB, but one with an apparently fatally bruised ego who never wanted to be a Washington Redskin and who failed to show up when it counted most in big games. He's had to navigate some very challenging schedules, ones that a team finishing .500 really in fairness shouldn't have been saddled with. And he experienced injuries in season 4 that would've had the best of NFL Head Coaches struggling.

I still like and believe in Gruden. I think this would actually be the absolute worst time to cut bait on him. We appear to finally have a defensive staff that knows how to build a competent defense (I know some of you will argue that's more 'wishful thinking' than fact) and have an exciting rebuilt DL. We have taken steps to build a competent, if not great rushing attack, drafting OL and RB talent. We've secured a viable replacement starting QB. And we've had some very good if not great drafts adding some impressive young talent to our roster. We are a rising team in my opinion and you don't fire your head coach when your team is on the rise.

This is how I see it. I'm sure many of you will vehemently disagree :)
 
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I'm trying to be positive these days, but it's not easy when specifically ask for the negatives. :)

But since you asked, the easiest answer is that he's been here for four seasons and the Redskins are 28-35-1 and 0-1 in the playoffs. How is that significantly different than the previous six coaches under Dan Snyder? I'm a simple man :). Things are the way they are, until they aren't. Four years is long enough to see that Gruden is a mediocre coach that can put together a nice passing game, and nothing much else. Yes, we have different defensive players and a great scheme and there were injuries and ... and ... and ...

It's been four years. In those four years, the team has gone from the 19th, to 20th, 21st and, finally, 27th in rushing yards. In those four years, the team has averaged slightly worse than 24th in defense (never higher than 20th) and 23rd in scoring defense (never higher than 17th). At some point it's not luck, or injuries, or personnel, or assistant coaches, or the phase of the moon. At some point, a team takes on the personality of it's coach, including his strengths and weaknesses. Now, Gruden as I said, he's is pretty good at putting a passing game together, and that's good. He's now on his 3rd starting QB in five years. That's bad. That's baaaaaaaaad. On top of that this new QB is 34 years old, so he's not going to be here very long. Superbad. We will also be on our third set of starting WRs in three years. Bad bad bad. Now Gruden is not the GM, but he's head coach. I'd like to think that after five years he has SOME say in who his starters are, especially in the one area he's actually good at. This revolving door will sooner or later catch up to the team. I think with regards to the WRs, it already has somewhat. It will with the QB too. At some point we'll actually have to keep a QB that produces, even if he's not perfect. You keep rolling the dice and eventually you'll hit snake-eyes. That's why most team not called the Washington Redskins lock up franchise QBs for decades. It's the one position that you simply can't afford to screw up. And that seems to be our specialty.

Gruden was hired, not in small part because he's a QB genius. That makes all of this insanely worse.

All that said, do I want him fired? Nah. Give him another year. Let's know for super-sure it's not injuries or an unusually bad string of uniquely tempermental franchise-calibre QBs, or the phase of the moon. I'm fine with that.

But if we hover around 8 wins again. Yeah, fire the guy. You don't want a revolving door, but going with 7 to 9 wins for five straight years and keeping on like that ... you don't want to be the Cincinnati Bengals either.

That's what I think.
 
Kinda glad Henry chimed in before I did, because he sums up my feelings more assertively than I would have. Gruden will be the Norv Turner I thought he was for the next 10 years, going from team to team in need of a good OC after he gets one more HC position or 2 until GM's realize he's just not HC material.

It will be a fun season hovering around .500 possibly winning 9. I just hope we don't see a team completely shut down like the final year of Shanahan's tenure if it looks like Gruden is on his last leg.
 
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He's now on his 3rd starting QB in five years. That's bad. That's baaaaaaaaad. On top of that this new QB is 34 years old, so he's not going to be here very long. Superbad.

In reality, Gruden has had 1 QB.
Cousins was his QB, and the only QB he picked. And the only QB he really wanted the whole time.
He inherited RG3. That wasn't his fault. Then he had both the instincts and balls to do the bravest thing in the NFL. Bench the most expensive QB ever (including picks paid and money paid)
He wanted Cousins all along and noone else. He wanted Cousins to stay. It wasn't his fault Cousins left, and Smith came in.
 
You nailed it Boone....

I would like to point out just how TOXIC this team was when Gruden took over. This team is in a MUCH better place as a franchise now... We have better personnel, better players, and what would appear to be a better environment. How much of that is Gruden? We don't really know, probably never will. Multiple factors can lead to it, but regardless, it happened on his watch.

That said, I think his leash is getting shorter by the minute BECAUSE now we have the best roster he's had in his tenure here. We have a franchise QB. We have talent on both sides of the ball. We have game breaking players. We have invested in the trenches. We have improved our pass rush. We have 1st round talent on both sides of the ball. We have pro-bowl players on the Offensive line. We have 2 of the top assistants in football. We have 2 stars in the front office. We've gotten to a better place, so the excuses are disappearing, it's time to produce.

Me, I'm in the same boat as Elephant, as I find myself looking at Gruden as a really good OC, but never a head coach. He's just missing 'it.' Now that said, I think that 'it' that he's missing can get made up for in having a strong leadership within the players. Guys like Alex Smith COULD make up for some of it, by controlling those weird things that happen between the yard markers. I often wonder how much different it would have been if Fletcher was here while Gruden was the coach. If Gruden can find a QB who has that savvy, that 'player coach,' I think a LOT of his deficiencies could be made up for and this team could be in a REALLY good place.
 
Gruden's tenure will be defined by this season, my biggest issue with him is lack of in game adjustments and lack of a running game. He definitely walked into a drama filled s*** show, he handled better than I could, I'd probably have mf'd half the team out of the building but he's on that bubble at this time. I don't really fault him for how last season unfolded, we all knew capt. can'twinunderpressure had no desire to be here and then the injuries dismantled what might've been a playoff team. I most excited to see how this team performs with a QB who wants to be here, I still think some of the lackluster effort from the team last year was players knowing that even if they played their guts out that the guy behind center could care less and only worried about his stats and a payday. If we sniff the playoffs or put together a good campaign regardless of record ex: we finish 7-9 with a ton of injuries but the games are close I see him getting an extension. As the saying goes, you're only as good as what you did yesterday and yesterday for Gruden hasn't been that great so time to see what he can do when he's on a semi-hot seat.
 
Well, I know I'm one that has said, if we don't make the playoffs this year, it's time for him to go.
And I don't care if the entire roster winds up on IR.

I've been one who sees him as another Norv, too. OC material, but just can't lead a team. His running game talk has been just that, talk. His game clock management is still rookie-ish. He's good with Plan A, most of the time. Wouldn't know a Plan B if it crawled up his ass and pitched a tent. Several stinker assistant choices (Haslett, Barry, Kotwica) Foolishly in love with Lauvao, and Crowder as PR.

For an ex-QB, doesn't seem to get along with his QB's very well. I don't give him as much credit as some do for canning III, when he did. He obviously decided he didn't want him after spending 30 seconds with him. And even though he had the protection of a guaranteed contract, he lacked the balls to make the move right away. It wasn't until he had the drunk on his side that he grew a set, or the drunk loaned him a set, and made the move. He got no loyalty from the Greedy Lying Bastard. Even though he helped make him a multi-millionaire. You know he rubbed Colt the wrong way bringing in Alex. Even if he did sign an extension. Of course, smith will have to be the one to save Gruden's job. He's already established. We just have to hope Gruden doesn't screw him up now.

So no, he's not a bad coach. But he's been nothing special either. And yes, he can get better. But his leadership, clock management, in game adjustments, and system stubbornness is no better today than the day he was hired. So, while it's possible he'll get better, there's no evidence of progression that I see. With a stacked and healthy team, he can win. He just can't hit the breaking ball.

And I repeat, I hope he shuts me the **** up this season.
 
In reality, Gruden has had 1 QB.

In REALITY, he's started four. I thought I was being generous by not counting McCoy.

If we rationalize away this QB, and excuse him for not wanting that QB, and blame the front office and the team and every ex-player that's ever become a free agent, maybe Gruden had one QB. But you don't get graded on a curve in this league. You are what you are until you aren't. We are a team that cannot settle the QB position. We haven't started the same QB in Week One for four straight years since Mark Rypien. At some point it's not the rest of the world that's the problem.

I agree with Boone that we don't want to have a revolving coaching door. But if we have a revolving door at QB, does it really matter? And again, Gruden's SPECIALTY is the QB position. A big reason he was brought in was to work with our QB. And they still keep walking out the door. If Gruden isn't part of the problem, he sure as hell ain't fixing it.

Cousins was his QB, and the only QB he picked. And the only QB he really wanted the whole time.
He inherited RG3. That wasn't his fault. Then he had both the instincts and balls to do the bravest thing in the NFL. Bench the most expensive QB ever (including picks paid and money paid)
He wanted Cousins all along and noone else.

Then why isn't Cousins here? If Cousins was his guy all along (I don't know how we can know that, but I wasn't really watching last year. Did Gruden say something?) then Cousins should be here. Gruden should have gone to the mat for him, at least once over the past three years and said 'sign this guy. He's my guy. We are hitching our wagon to him.' That's what every coach in the history of coaching says when they 'really want' a QB.

And if he didn't feel that way about Cousins, what the hell were we doing for the past three years? Gruden has to bear SOME of the blame for the cluster***k at the QB position. He's the HEAD COACH.

He wanted Cousins to stay. It wasn't his fault Cousins left, and Smith came in.

I sure hope that's not true. If Cousins is his guy and Smith isn't, we're screwed. I'll say it right now.
 
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Yeah, he chose Kurt.

Then, he benched him. For Colt.

As I said, for being an ex-QB, he sure doesn't seem to get along with them.

Now, since he doesn't have to teach Smith how to be a QB, maybe we'll get to see what his system can do under the guidance of a legit QB.
Smith will save Gruden from himself.
 
Nevermind. I'm going too negative. :)

Go skins!
 
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In REALITY, he's started four. I thought I was being generous by not counting McCoy.

For our intents and purposes Gruden had 1 QB, for reasons already stated. He only chose Cousins. Cousins is the only QB he has wanted for Gruden's qhole tenure.

I agree with Boone that we don't want to have a revolving coaching door. But if we have a revolving door at QB, does it really matter?

Absolutely it matters. There's a HUGE difference between changing QB's and changing coaches. Changing QB's and only one person has to learn the system. Change a coach, and 63 players including PS, have to learn the system.

And again, Gruden's SPECIALTY is the QB position. A big reason he was brought in was to work with our QB. And they still keep walking out the door. If uden isn't part of the problem, he sure as hell ain't fixing it.

He can't fix what he can't control. At some point you have to draw the line on what the coach is responsible for. He can't control players leaving on their own, or the FO bringing in new players. He did his job by working with the QB like you said, and making him better. Cousins greatly improved under Gruden.

Then why isn't Cousins here? If Cousins was his guy all along (I don't know how we can know that, but I wasn't really watching last year. Did Gruden say something?) then Cousins should be here. Gruden should have gone to the mat for him, at least once over the past three years and said 'sign this guy. He's my guy. We are hitching our wagon to him.' That's what every coach in the history of coaching says when they 'really ant' a QB.

I think it's common understanding and belief that Cousins isn't here because he did not want to be here under any circumstances.
There is nothing Gruden or the FO could have done to keep him.
Kirk was intent on leaving. Gruden did voice support him, including comments that encouraged a deal to get done. Gruden has nothing to do with negotiations.
I'm pretty sure Gruden did go to the office and express his support to sign this guy. Fact his he didn't even need to. Doug and Bruce and the whole FO were "all in" for Cousins. But the feeling was not mutual.

I sure hope that's not true. If Cousins is his guy and Smith isn't, we're screwed. I'll say it right now.

Ok you're critical of Gruden having so many QB's, then you're critical of Cousins being "his man", implying Gruden really did have one QB.
So how can it be both ways ?
 
Ok you're critical of Gruden having so many QB's, then you're critical of Cousins being "his man", implying Gruden really did have one QB.
So how can it be both ways ?

It's only one way. Gruden is on his third QB in five years. And that's bad. Either he couldn't figure out a way to keep a QB he wanted, or he stuck with a QB he didn't want. Either way, we're on our third QB in five years.

So for whatever reason, the buck stops with the front office, of which Gruden is a part. We're five years in. We should be settled at QB. A good coach would be.
 
It's only one way. Gruden is on his third QB in five years. And that's bad. Either he couldn't figure out a way to keep a QB he wanted, or he stuck with a QB he didn't want. Either way, we're on our third QB in five years.

So for whatever reason, the buck stops with the front office, of which Gruden is a part.

That's it. He's a part. Not the whole.
The buck doesn't stop with Gruden himself. I thought this thread was about only Gruden, and not the FO.
 
That's it. He's a part. Not the whole.
The buck doesn't stop with Gruden himself. I thought this thread was about only Gruden, and not the FO.

Well, let's hope you're right. Smith probably won't need much time to get himself up to speed, so there's that.
 
Also, just wanted to add/mention that for all we know Gruden could have done his part by having meetings with the FO, and stomping and jumping on the conference table and screaming at the top of his lungs, "Please sign Kirk no matter what !!!"
But that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
 
What I'm saying, and I'm probably not saying it very well, is that a good coach would keep His Guy. He just would. He'd convince the QB to stay. He'd get the FO to talk to him. He'd make it happen. Because he's the coach.

I agree with those that compare Gruden to Norv Turner. Things just seem to happen to him, don't they? Poor, poor Gruden. Such a victim. :)

A good coach ain't a victim. A good coach doesn't lose a Franchise QB if it matters to him.

We shouldn't be on our third QB under Gruden, for whatever reason, and I'm ok placing some blame on him for it.
 
What I'm saying, and I'm probably not saying it very well, is that a good coach would keep His Guy. He just would. He'd convince the QB to stay. He'd get the FO to talk to him. He'd make it happen. Because he's the coach.

I agree with those that compare Gruden to Norv Turner. Things just seem to happen to him, don't they? Poor, poor Gruden. Such a victim. :)

A good coach ain't a victim. A good coach doesn't lose a Franchise QB if it matters to him.

We shouldn't be on our third QB under Gruden, for whatever reason, and I'm ok placing some blame on him for it.

Like I said, this was beyond Gruden's control, and even beyond the FO's control. And I will give you strong evidence to support that.
Kirk decided from day one that he did not want to be a Redskin.
No matter what Gruden did. No matter what the FO did.
Comments from Kirk that were post-Redskins-career such as, "For the first time in my career I get to dictate what team I go to, and it's not dictated where I go."
Or even more telling, comments like "Here in Minnesota I'm a leader. In Washington, I was just a 4th round pick."

What that tells me is that Kirk clearly was permanently upset (to put it lightly) that the Redskins spent a 4th round pick on him, in addition to giving up a king's ransom for RG3, and the Redskins knowing full well that Kirk had virtually zero chance (at the time) of ever being the starter. Kirk apparently was convinced and obsessed with being a starter right away. How about that legendary picture where RG3 is running 70 yards for a TD, and Kirk is standing like a statue on the sidelines, void of all emotion, when everyone else is jumping up and down. That is telling, and sums up a lot. Not getting that opportunity right away, was a big big deal in his eyes.

When he refers to that draft, even after he leaves Washington, that tells me is he was beyond upset about it his entire time in Washington, and he had zero intention of ever staying, regardless of anything that Jay did, or the FO did, to redeem the situation. It was an extremely unique situation, that almost never happens, therefore it's not comparable to compare it to other coaches who are somehow able to "keep their guy".

Then there's the fact that neither Kirk nor his agent gave a single peep of a reply to the FO's LTD offer.
Or the fact that, during the whole "negotiation period", in Boone's eloquent words, Kirk would talk of both sides of his mouth to the media about the situation, contradicting his statements on whether he wanted to be here.
Kirk decided from day one, he would leave Washington the first chance he gets, to make a "statement"
 
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I haven't seen many people too negative on Gruden. Most seem willing to give him the benefit of the doubt over last season due to the insane amount of injuries we suffered.

To this point today, I'm just grateful that he came when he did and that he steadied the ship.

Now show us greatness.
 
What I'm saying, and I'm probably not saying it very well, is that a good coach would keep His Guy. He just would. He'd convince the QB to stay. He'd get the FO to talk to him. He'd make it happen. Because he's the coach.

I agree with those that compare Gruden to Norv Turner. Things just seem to happen to him, don't they? Poor, poor Gruden. Such a victim. :)

A good coach ain't a victim. A good coach doesn't lose a Franchise QB if it matters to him.

We shouldn't be on our third QB under Gruden, for whatever reason, and I'm ok placing some blame on him for it.

You're being clear...some just want to excuse Gruden.

And this is not necessarily directed at you Henry, but the one thing I like least about Jay Gruden? He's not Mike Zimmer!
 

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