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Why So Down on Gruden?

Gruden's current contract runs this season and next before expiring correct? I'm willing to give him that, if for anything continuity's sake.

We've had good roster turnover for younger draft picks. There's ample talent on this years team to atleast get a wildcard. if Jay cannot get anything done in Smith's 2nd season with the team though it's time to look elsewhere for the position. Maybe Gray
 
You're being clear...some just want to excuse Gruden.

And this is not necessarily directed at you Henry, but the one thing I like least about Jay Gruden? He's not Mike Zimmer!

If you want to call me out, man up and call me out :)

There's this thing El, called 'context'. No one succeeds or fails in a vaccuum. Gruden has had some relative success. The fact that Gruden has yet to 'succeed' by most Skins fans measures doesn't mean a) he's not going to be a great coach, nor b) that he won't succeed to the satisfaction of all of you.

Mike Zimmer? What the **** is so magical about him?

He's had one exactly one more playoff win than Gruden in 4 years brother - that's dazzling to you?
 
Gruden's current contract runs this season and next before expiring correct? I'm willing to give him that, if for anything continuity's sake.

We've had good roster turnover for younger draft picks. There's ample talent on this years team to atleast get a wildcard. if Jay cannot get anything done in Smith's 2nd season with the team though it's time to look elsewhere for the position. Maybe Gray

I think that's fair.
 
"I don't hate Balboa, but I pity the fool".

I'm willing to give Jay one more season after this one - unless this season is totally in the toilet. Losing Guice is painful and perhaps this was the beginning of recognizing that a good rushing offense was finally needed. Just on that basis alone is why I think a sixth year is warranted. If the results are still mediocre after 2019, then it is time to move on.
 
"I don't hate Balboa, but I pity the fool".

I'm willing to give Jay one more season after this one - unless this season is totally in the toilet. Losing Guice is painful and perhaps this was the beginning of recognizing that a good rushing offense was finally needed. Just on that basis alone is why I think a sixth year is warranted. If the results are still mediocre after 2019, then it is time to move on.

 
If you want to call me out, man up and call me out :)

There's this thing El, called 'context'. No one succeeds or fails in a vaccuum. Gruden has had some relative success. The fact that Gruden has yet to 'succeed' by most Skins fans measures doesn't mean a) he's not going to be a great coach, nor b) that he won't succeed to the satisfaction of all of you.

Mike Zimmer? What the **** is so magical about him?

He's had one exactly one more playoff win than Gruden in 4 years brother - that's dazzling to you?

Zimmer is clearly in control of a well disciplined team...a team that is certainly on the rise and will contend for a Super Bowl appearnace this year...again. Gruden runs a much less disciplined team and it shows, nor will this team compete for a Super Bowl this year.

As for measurements of success...if you thinks we've seen a true measurement of success because we had one playoff appearance in 4 years, then completely regressing 2 years in a row after, ok...I don't.

Then there is his lack of growth in a couple of major areas, one of the most simple...not ****ing up a game because you do not know how to manage a clock? I will wait til the season starts to really get upset about that one, but Gruden has yet been able to prove he can either save or waste time when warranted. That has not progressed...at all in 4 years. And yes, while a meaningless measure in some eyes, I base an entire skill set on one of football's simplest coaching characteristics...when the pressure is on late in games you either have to burn as much time as possible, or call plays and time outs to save clock when needed. Gruden has lost us games because he doesn't seem to have the ability to manage the damn clock.
 
Obviously I measure success the same way you do - playoff appearances and championships - and you know I do :)

And Zimmer has had one good year with 13 wins (and a SINGLE playoff win). His team's records are nearly identical to Gruden's except for last season and that 1 playoff win. That's not to take anything away from last season. Gruden's also had 1 very good season, we just didn't win the Green Bay Playoff game. I agree the Vikings are on the rise. Although we were not a playoff team in 2017, I think we're also a team on the rise. The rest of your assessment is opinion and 'feelings'...

As an example, you mentioned that Zimmer's teams are a lot more 'disciplined' than Gruden's. Only measure I know of 'discipline' is penalties. Only problem with that statement is that its more 'feeling' than 'fact'...

In 2017, the Redskins had the 5th fewest penalties in the NFL with only 92. Honestly - given the number of guys we had to shuffle into our roster last year, that's simply amazing. The Vikings by comparison had the 11th fewest with 100. Given the Vikings played 2 more games, that's probably just about dead even. In 2016, the Redskins had 110 penalties called on them to the Vikings 103. Not a significant difference. Interestingly enough, penalty rankings seem to have almost no correlation with record. The Eagles for example, have been in the top 10 the past 2 years for most team penalties. Falcons have been in the middle of the stats during that stretch. Patriots seem to always have fewer penalties, but it may be as much official's deference to them than that they are actually 'more disciplined'. If you look at team penalty stats, there are always 4-5 teams with 20-40 more penalties called, and then the rest of the NFL teams are bunched together in a narrow spread. At least by the numbers, Gruden has not had a problem with penalties - unless you want to count his first year when the NFL called a lot of penalties. Skins had 120 called on them, same as the New England Patriots.
 
Zimmer is clearly in control of a well disciplined team...a team that is certainly on the rise and will contend for a Super Bowl appearnace this year...again. Gruden runs a much less disciplined team and it shows

I have no idea what would make anyone come to this conclusion.

The Redskins were one of the least penalized teams in the league last year. Far less than Minnesota. And that's with brand new players being shuffled in and out and trying to learn snap counts. That's incredibly disciplined when the whole thing could have fallen apart.

Now while not as disciplined as the Redskins, Minnesota was far more talented.

Zimmer had the benefit of inheriting a defense with 8 of 11 starters who were first or second round picks. That might be an all-time NFL record.

In contrast, the Redskins had 2 1/2? Kerrigan, Smith and Allen--for the games he was healthy last season.
 
Not sure the media pimping of the Vikes is just anti-Redskins sentiment or what. I have a feeling they'll be the Vegas Golden Knights of the NFL... lose in the finals, borderline playoff team for the upcoming season.

That's just how I feel anyway.
 
We know Cousins is a very good QB. He's going to have a good year - those hoping for an epic meltdown from him are kidding themselves. He's an excellent passer and will rack up some serious passing yards. The test will be what it's always been. Can he win in the post-season. Based on numerous years of watching him be less than dazzling when under the big spotlight, I'm skeptical. He's just never been a 'put the team on my shoulders and will us to victory' kind of a guy. To be fair, Smith has had only moderate success in that regard too. But Alex has a better record in crunch time.
 
Well, the one consistent positive for Gruden is, his offense is very QB friendly. An average QB, like the Greedy Lying Bastard, looks good running it. I think it has even greater potential with an already developed QB, like Smith.

As for the GLB, Minnesota made the Championship game without him. And, without their promising rookie RB. Anything short of a return to the Championship game, WILL be a failure. If they don't even make the playoffs, I imagine Viking fans will be ready to burn him at the stake.


I know one Vikings fan, who lives here in Redskins country, and he already thinks Minny wasted their money.


Anyway, **** him! **** the Vikings! And **** any more criticism of Gruden, for what's past!


The future is NOW!!!!! HTTR
 
Look, I don't know that much about Zimmer. I can't give the ins-and-outs of why he's significantly better than Gruden.

I can say this. His record after four seasons is 39-25, and 1-2 in the playoffs. He's had an 11-win season and a 13-win season. There is NO comparison between him and Gruden right now. How does one come to the conclusion that a .609 win percentage is in any way comparable to a .444 win percentage? Boone, I luv ya, but the fact that you consider a 9-win season and a first round loss in the playoffs 'very good' just goes to show how freaking low we've set the bar around here.

I also know that Zimmer's golden boy prized first-round-pick-pro-bowl-future-of-the-franchise-QB blew out his knee and was lost forever in a freak accident in Zimmer's third season, so ... you know ... everyone has injuries. They just put together a top ten offense and won 13 games with Case Keenum under center. At some point you have to turn that corner. At SOME POINT, just win ten or more freaking games. Forget playoff wins or division titles or championship appearances or superbowl wins. Just win some games for once. Is 11 wins SO darn hard?

... er ... sorry. :) Where was I?

Oh yes. I'll tell ya, if Gruden had put together two 11+ win seasons in four years with the Redskins nobody, and I mean nobody, would say boo about the guy. He'd have years and years of good grace to work with. One, uh, 'very good' 9-win season ... he's about used that one up. Time to get it together. This year. Now.
 
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We know Cousins is a very good QB. He's going to have a good year - those hoping for an epic meltdown from him are kidding themselves. He's an excellent passer and will rack up some serious passing yards. The test will be what it's always been. Can he win in the post-season. Based on numerous years of watching him be less than dazzling when under the big spotlight, I'm skeptical. He's just never been a 'put the team on my shoulders and will us to victory' kind of a guy. To be fair, Smith has had only moderate success in that regard too. But Alex has a better record in crunch time.

Not expecting epic meltdown, just saying the entire football-watching world has seen his best already.

He reminds me of a friend who had a coworker out for childbirth recently. She was convinced this coworker, who was pretty lackadaisical to begin with, would suddenly return with renewed vigor and increased resolve now that she had purpose.

I said "Nope."

I've never seen anyone, male or female, do a sudden professional 180 after having a kid. Just because Cousins says here he was "only a fourth round pick" and that in Minny he feels like a team leader doesn't mean he'll suddenly grab the reigns and pull the team. He won't be any better a QB in Minny than he was here, but they're paying for him to be better and lead them to a Super Bowl victory.

By the way... that coworker who just had the baby? She turned in her resignation about a month ago... three weeks after returning to work.

Nick
 
I can say this. His record after four seasons is 39-25, and 1-2 in the playoffs. He's had an 11-win season and a 13-win season. There is NO comparison between him and Gruden right now. How does one come to the conclusion that a .609 win percentage is in any way comparable to a .444 win percentage? Boone, I luv ya, but the fact that you consider a 9-win season and a first round loss in the playoffs 'very good' just goes to show how freaking low we've set the bar around here.
.

I've already acknowledged that the Vikings have had more success under Zimmer than the Skins have had under Gruden so far. That playoff year (2015), Gruden lead the Skins to winning 6 out of 8 of their remaining games including wins over the Saints, Giants, Bills, and Eagles and Cowboys (both of those on the road). We came from behind to unexpectedly win the division and earn our first home playoff game. That WAS very good. Freezing our asses off together with our kids that night was not very good :)

I've never said Gruden and his tenure has been 'very good'. In fact, the whole point I'm trying to make is that even if we'd been in the playoffs every year, if we can't consistently get to and win playoff games and be in the mix for a championship, the head coach and franchise is failing its primary goal. I can't deny the Vikings have won more games - you're right. But when it comes to the ultimate assessment they've barely surpassed our Redskins.

And for the 10th time this month, I'll annoyingly repeat the mantra 'context matters'. Fans compare coaches head to head. But it's a ridiculous exercise. We have no idea what the Vikings and Redskins paths would've been had Gruden gone to the Vikes and Zimmer come here. We want to pretend we know, but we do not. That's not to argue that Gruden's path has been that much more difficult. It's hard for any young NFL coach to win (Belichick couldn't even manage it). But I don't think there's any question that Zimmer inherited a club in much less turmoil and with much more talent. And when all is said and done, the Vikings have one playoff win (which btw, they got when, trailing the Saints with 20 seconds to go in the game, Keenum hit Stefon Diggs on a 61 yard desperation pass for a no-time-left winning TD). They won the game, and kudos to them, but just wanted to put that dominant playoff win in perspective :)

Henry said:
I also know that Zimmer's golden boy prized first-round-pick-pro-bowl-future-of-the-franchise-QB blew out his knee and was lost forever in a freak accident in Zimmer's third season, so ... you know ... everyone has injuries. They just put together a top ten offense and won 13 games with Case Keenum under center. At some point you have to turn that corner. At SOME POINT, just win ten or more freaking games. Forget playoff wins or division titles or championship appearances or superbowl wins. Just win some games for once. Is 11 wins SO darn hard?

I agree 100%

Henry said:
I'll tell ya, if Gruden had put together two 11+ win seasons in four years with the Redskins nobody, and I mean nobody, would say boo about the guy. He'd have years and years of good grace to work with. One, uh, 'very good' 9-win season ... he's about used that one up. Time to get it together. This year. Now.

No argument here either.
 
I dunno, B. I think the context is now 20 years long and counting.

Anyway, hopefully we win the division and playoff game or three and this whole discussion becomes moot. :)
 
I dunno, B. I think the context is now 20 years long and counting.

Anyway, hopefully we win the division and playoff game or three and this whole discussion becomes moot. :)

Amen. I'm kind of tired of arguing pre-season/hx. Ready to argue the future ... lol ...
 
I think I have seen enough of Gruden in 4 years to say I don't see him ever being labeled a 'great' coach.

At the same time he wasn't given a full cabinet of talent in 2014 to work with either.

What has bothered me most about Gruden is that unlike a Jimmy Johnson or Bill Walsh who were set to work rebuilding teams that had come off some very lean years with limited talent, Gruden's teams failed to show up with EFFORT in a number of games that were winnable the past couple of years.

We closed 2016 and 2017 losing games to the Giants where the Redskins came out flat and failed to put out the kind of effort that would lead you to believe they were on the right track and were on the verge of turning this thing around.

THAT failure to 'get off the plane' I place at the foot of the coaching staff.

And what causes that?

In part it's players on the roster being too comfortable in re their jobs and not being told as Johnson and Walsh did that if 'you don't do your job we will bring in someone who will'.

One thing that really pissed me off last year was Josh Norman's performance. He was by many accounts our THIRD best cornerback in terms of straight play in 2017 over 16 games.

He's the second highest paid player on the team.

You just can't have that in the cap era. Your top earners like Trent Williams and Kerrigan have to produce.

And I count Norman in that group.

On a team like New England or Philly Josh Norman would be playing for his career here in 2018 to show he is worth the investment at age 30.

Norman's salary slot if he has an 'average' season in 2018 is one that can be used to pay Brandon Scherff his extension or lock up Preston Smith if he has a dominant year as a pass rusher (hoping rather than fully confident on that score).
 
There's been a lot of talk about Gruden going 0-4 in openers.
But this statistic pretty much settles that Gruden is not to blame.
And that the issue has been totally resolved :)

 
I really like Gruden and want him to stick around, however I will say if we don't make the playoffs this year it's time to move on. Though I think that we will.

He has rebuilt this team from the trash heap we were left in talent wise. He and his coaching staff have done a great job in building and developing homegrown talent. I think this is the year we see the fruits of that.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
I think he gets one more year at least, even if we miss the playoffs...with the exception of a complete disaster like 3-13.
Because I think this is really the first year that he has been given a decent roster all the way around, with no major weaknesses. And the reason I think he gets one more year after this is because so much of the players are either new to the team, or young, so that they may need another year for the growth and chemistry to come to fruition.
 

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