A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 3 - Packers. Do the Skins show up?

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  1. #21

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
    I’m glad you finally revealed what’s behind this hatred of Cousins. It’s really sad, but at least I see it now. You’ve created this narrative that no matter what he does, you will be mad at him and call him all kinds of names.

    If it’s all about money for Cousins, he will sign somewhere like Cleveland which is a dumpster fire for some insane amount of money. If he does that, then yes it’s all about the money. Otherwise, I expect him to take into account winning and stability of the team.
    Naw, you misread me my friend.

    I do not hate him. As long as he is playing for my team, I wish for nothing but good results. I just happen to believe we haven't gotten much for the money he's made so far. I think he wants even more. I think he wants to break the FA market. He's as much as said so.

    He's a stat machine. Hell, he helped get me into the playoffs in one of my paid FF leagues. But in the real games, he's middle of the road. At best. I think he's doing/saying everything his agent has told him to. Agents don't give a rats ass about a team's best interest.

    And it is about the money, when it comes to us. If you don't think he would have signed a contract for double the amount we offered, you're crazy. Never would have heard a word about "direction". It's a ploy, dreamed up by his agent, to him looking like the good guy in all this. I've watched his pressers. I've heard the things he's said. I'm sorry, you can't bullshit a bullshitter. He's playing the front office like a fiddle. For every cent he can squeeze out of them. They've been fool enough to let him get away with it. They've paid $40mil and got two seasons of subpar results.

    So yeah, I've called him a Greedy Lying Bastard, because he want too much money (Greedy) He's not being honest about his intentions (Lying) and he and his supporters act like he's treated like a red headed step child (Bastard). I call him Crook, cause he's stealing money, IMHO. I call him #8 , or our current starting QB because he acts more like a mercenary that doesn't WANT to be here. UNLESS we pay him way above market value. I hold him, and the team, equally responsible for this whole mess. But, I root for the helmet, not the players. They come and go.

    If we're going to pay the stupid amount he wants, in order to erase his Directionitus, then I want them to do it 5 minutes after the season ends. Make him choose right away, or cut him and move on. If he signs, he signs. If he doesn't, life will go on.
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  2. #22

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Really?

    So in your opinion, does the Redskins Front Office show as much urgency in signing Kirk as they did with Josh Norman or Desean Jackson?

    In both cases, they pursued those two like a lovesick teenager. Hell, they flew Norman up here and wouldn't let him leave the building until he signed.
    Of course, you leave out the fact that Norman (McCloo the "Real" GM's guy) and Jackson had produced at high levels for more than 5 minutes. They more earned being pursued than did the stat king.
    The low ball, yet legit offer they made last offseason was met with crickets. Showed zero class on Crook and his puppet master agent's part.

    Where's that level of concern for the best Qb to have walked through the door in 20+ years?
    Yeah, we've been dating girls with no teeth. But just because we found one that has 2-3, we shouldn't get too excited.
    She's still classifies as a toothless bitch.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Wow. This thread is depressing fellas. The majority of the posts suggest that KC is gone. I sincerely hope you're wrong. This guy walks away and we are another two or three steps back in our two and a half decade rebuild IMHO. Colt McCoy is not the answer. Neither is another swing for the fences RG3 debacle pick. I don't have the answers, wish I did, but damn. Kirk has done some excellent things for us, and I for one hope he stays. Somehow.
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  4. #24

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Eh, it's not as bad as it sounds Dude. I think it's more likely than not that he doesn't want to be here. That's all. He'll take his multimillions he hasn't earned and move on. It's in his best interest to stay in Jay's system. It's quarterback friendly, and pass first. I think Colt could flourish in this system while a young guy is in training. I don't forsee the doomsday scenarios of #8 moving on.

    We can not make the playoffs again with any QB in the league.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    =Ax;351764We can not make the playoffs again with any QB in the league.
    I see your point brother, but I think we had a legit shot this year without the deluge of injuries we suffered. I know any season is a war of attrition, but we got hammered pretty good in some key spots (Oline, Jonathan Allen, etc etc). I think at least 3-4 of our losses go the other way if we're even marginally healthy...but maybe that's my rose, err, burgundy colored glasses coloring my perspective. Cheers. Love the Sean Connery quote from "The Rock" btw. Epic.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    I feel like it's 50/50 whether KC will be the starting QB here next year.

    All things being equal I'd like him under centre because I don't think we can do better. Ax is right, he's not the second coming, but then most QB's are.
    (As an aside we watched both the Packers game and the Skins game at the same time on Sunday side by side. Wifey was so happy about the return of Rodgers till he threw 3 interceptions and lost them the game. Even having one of the best is no guarantee. Now she knows the deflating feeling of losing the playoffs before the end of the season. I didn't rub it in at all...)

    Ax is right in that the money that Kirk wants is high, and probably too high for us to realistically pay even if we put aside the argument about him being worth it or not. The Skins have backed themselves into a corner where paying multiple Franchise tags has just raised his expected price tag. He's made something like $44M in two years and the tag this year is what? $34M?
    As that escalates there is no way he's going to sign at a low cost, low enough to be affordable anyhow.

    So the Redskins, if they want to keep him, will be paying alot of money.

    I was listening to a podcast the other day (I don't remember which one) and they were talking about the resigning of Zack Brown and how the Redskins can't do it yet because they don't have the money.
    Apparently (and I'm sure someone else could clear this up for me) the fact that we have 18 players on IR and have had to sign replacements for them has eaten into any salary cap we had left.
    I got this off google... "When a player goes on injured reserve, his full salary cap figure counts against his team's salary cap unless otherwise specified in the player's contract. ... NFL teams try to factor in the cost of players on injured reserve against the salary cap when they make their business plans each year"

    So with that said, there's the other way the injuries have just KILLED us this year. We're now paying for a full team of salary PLUS the other 18 players we had to sign to replace them. The coffers are empty right now.
    So we can't even begin to sign all our Free Agents till after the season when we can waive players, which is why we now have such a risk with Brown. We can't wrap him up early so he'll hit the market post season.

    Circling this back around to Kirk, this means that we'll probably have to pay slightly inflated rates if we want to keep players like Brown. And every time we have to eek out an extra half million here and an extra million there to sign other key players, the pot of cash for Kirk gets smaller.

    I don't blame Kirk for holding out for the cash. Every one of us would do the same especially in a career where the very next play could end your career or worse.
    Best case scenario here would be that Kirk would recognize that he's already earned more money than he'll probably ever spend, that the Skins offer a best case scenario for him to continue putting up stats and wins, and commits to a long term contract for a reasonable amount. (I think it'll be a relatively high reasonable amount, but still...)

    If he doesn't then maybe we slap the Non Exclusive on him and let the market set his price. If we think matching what he gets offered is reasonable then we sign him. If not we let him go and do what Ax suggests, we draft high for a QB and we let Colt try his hands at the reins while we groom the next starter.

    I don't think it's all doom. I think we're still a team on the rise and regardless of who is under Centre we'll be in the mix as long as the injury bug doesn't hit us again like it did this year. Rolling the dice on QB's in the draft is a hit and miss affair, you never know who's going to be great and who's not. Even in our own experience from 2012. I still think out future is quite bright at the moment, Kirk or no Kirk.

    Of course... that is under the assumption that if Kirk goes, Gruden is back. If both go then I think we're looking at a systematic rebuild.... again. If that happens then god help us because fairy tale like the Rams are the outliers, not the norm.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Apparently KC1 has an insurance policy out on himself in the case of injury, from the advice of Max Scherzer. The year Scherzer entered Free Agency, he took a $40m insurance policy out on himself, in the even that he became physically unable to play. Not sure if Kirk did the same amount, but he has insured himself against injury.

    Essentially, he has taken the worry of injury and the inability to earn out of the equation, thus is more than happy to play on one-year deals for however long.

    We can go 6-10 or 7-9 with any QB. You'd have to have a short memory to forget how awful he was in the last year of Kyle's Offense and the first year of Norva... err... Gruden's Offense, which is supposed to be QB-friendly. He still shits the bed in big moments and has 2-3 head-scratchers in every game. Also don't forget that theoretical $19m deal a few years ago would be almost up by now and he'd expect an even bigger contract. Let someone else pay "market value" for him and we'll see his options are limited.

    I think Jimmy Garoppolo has already shown more in 2-3 starts than Kirk in terms of building a team.

    Nick
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by Knightingale View Post
    Of course... that is under the assumption that if Kirk goes, Gruden is back. If both go then I think we're looking at a systematic rebuild.... again. If that happens then god help us because fairy tale like the Rams are the outliers, not the norm.
    I don't think the Rams are an outlier, they were basically a good coach (read: not Jeff Fisher) away from being a really good team. God knows they don't lack talent.

    Nick
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by ntotoro View Post
    I don't think the Rams are an outlier, they were basically a good coach (read: not Jeff Fisher) away from being a really good team. God knows they don't lack talent.

    Nick
    That was exactly my point. The Rams had talent and just needed a coach (or pair of coaches) to come in and utilise it properly. That's not often the case in the NFL. When a team needs to rebuild from the ground up in the NFL you're usually assured at least a couple of terrible years. In our case we're looking at the fact we already need an RB and WR's on offense. Take Gruden and Kirk out and we're suddenly in need of alot more. The hopes of the fairytale Rams season for a Skins team in that boat would be very very slim.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by ntotoro View Post
    Apparently KC1 has an insurance policy out on himself in the case of injury, from the advice of Max Scherzer. The year Scherzer entered Free Agency, he took a $40m insurance policy out on himself, in the even that he became physically unable to play. Not sure if Kirk did the same amount, but he has insured himself against injury.

    Essentially, he has taken the worry of injury and the inability to earn out of the equation, thus is more than happy to play on one-year deals for however long.

    We can go 6-10 or 7-9 with any QB. You'd have to have a short memory to forget how awful he was in the last year of Kyle's Offense and the first year of Norva... err... Gruden's Offense, which is supposed to be QB-friendly. He still shits the bed in big moments and has 2-3 head-scratchers in every game. Also don't forget that theoretical $19m deal a few years ago would be almost up by now and he'd expect an even bigger contract. Let someone else pay "market value" for him and we'll see his options are limited.

    I think Jimmy Garoppolo has already shown more in 2-3 starts than Kirk in terms of building a team.

    Nick
    I haven't forgotten, just looking realistically at the situation.

    Kirk was a 5th round pick who was neglected behind the golden boy of RGIII for years before getting a shot. And that first year with Gruden was a mess of QB controversy as we merry-go-rounded Kirk and RGIII in and out all year. He was very much thrown in at the deep end and expected to swim in an offense tailored for RGIII. It was only the second year that Kirk got the regular starts and started to put rubber on the road. He's improved every year since then. He may not be flashy and be taking the league by storm like the Carson Wentz's of the world, but he's shown growth every year. From eliminating interceptions to trying to do more on the move to extend plays.

    I'm not saying this because I'm a Kirk fan. I'm not. But then I'm not against him either. I agree he's not an all time great, but then who is? And I like the fact that he's not Blaine Gabbert either. He's a steady hand, very good QB who can put up the numbers and if given a good team he'll take us deep into the playoffs, I have no doubt in my mind. I don't think he's a QB that can lift us to a win in the face of adversity, but I do think he's capable of delivering when the circumstances are right. And in that respect he's better than 75% of the QB's around the league.

    Talking Garropolo, yeah he looks great. I wish we had him under Centre because he looks like the real deal. But then he was a 2nd round draft pick who went to a good situation at the Patriots and was being groomed to potentially replace Grady, learning from the BEST and in one of the best environments in football. He's spent years in a winning culture in a winning team. Is it a surprise he's flourishing?
    That ship has sailed though.

    I think our current options are Kirk, Colt or Rebuild.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    The reason I bring up Garoppolo is that both he and Kirk are potentially FA's next year. The cost won't be the same for San Francisco to franchise him, but if he goes in Free Agency they're essentially competing against each other. That's not good for Kirk. Jimmy may have come from a winning environment, but he entered a losing one.

    Nick
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  12. #32

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    I don't buy that losing #8 , AND firing Gruden, is necessarily a guarantee of gloom and doom either.

    The money saved on not overpaying for slightly above average QB play, half of the time, would be used to lock up guys like Zach Brown, Mason Foster, and Spencer Long.
    I'd also like to keep Breeland, Murphy, and Hopkins.

    On team friendly contracts, I'd give Pryor another shot. Maybe Galette too. That's only 6-8 guys. Most of which would be covered with not over spending on Crook.

    Another 4-5 good FA pickups, 1 being a versatile veteran RB, and another solid draft class and UDFA's, with emphasis on trying to get a good young QB, and steady additions to both lines.

    Combine that with a head coach that will actually work to develop, and then USE the running game, instead of just flapping his lips about doing so, and we're in the mix for the playoffs. With Colt, or another FA vet at the helm.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    49ers haven't lost since he became starter.

    That wasn't my point anyway. Garropolo has LEARNT to play from the best QB in the league. And he learned it in a relaxed and winning environment after being a 2nd round draft pick.

    contrast to Kirk who was a 5th round pick and was thrown into one of the worst situations you could ask for as a young developing QB. Trying to learn alongside another rookie, with no role model and with all the attention on the Golden Boy drafted ahead of you, on a team that is in turmoil and then having to suffer through a change at HC and multiple coaches at OC.

    Two very different situations.

    And while the 49ers were a losing squad, they were a very frisky losing squad early on before they lost Hoyer, and it was clear that they were just missing a good playcaller behind Centre. I mean Beathard... Ugh.

    Garoppolo isn't hitting free agency, the 49ers will wrap him up like we should have done with Kirk. And if they do that then that'll probably be bad news for us as Kirk will be the premier FA QB on the market with alot of teams in the looking. As I said earlier I'd prefer they let the market set his price and then decide whether to match or not. Like Ax said, we have many more FA's that need to be signed.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    I don't buy that losing #8 , AND firing Gruden, is necessarily a guarantee of gloom and doom either.

    The money saved on not overpaying for slightly above average QB play, half of the time, would be used to lock up guys like Zach Brown, Mason Foster, and Spencer Long.
    I'd also like to keep Breeland, Murphy, and Hopkins.

    On team friendly contracts, I'd give Pryor another shot. Maybe Galette too. That's only 6-8 guys. Most of which would be covered with not over spending on Crook.

    Another 4-5 good FA pickups, 1 being a versatile veteran RB, and another solid draft class and UDFA's, with emphasis on trying to get a good young QB, and steady additions to both lines.

    Combine that with a head coach that will actually work to develop, and then USE the running game, instead of just flapping his lips about doing so, and we're in the mix for the playoffs. With Colt, or another FA vet at the helm.
    I'm not Doomy and Gloomy, I just think those are the options.

    The big issue we've got is as I said earlier, due to injuries we don't have the cap space to start negotiating contracts and signing players up now before they hit FA. Brown's price will be jacked up by FA because he's one of the leading tacklers in the league. Gallette will see a BIG jump in salary from the minimum we're paying because he's proved he can be healthy this year and productive if given the snaps. He wants to go elsewhere to get more playing time. Breeland will want CB#1 money (Josh Norman money - which he's not worth) so he's out the door I think.

    The rest I can see coming back.

    Like you though I want to see this Kirk situation resolved early. Non Exclusive him, let the market set the money and then sign him or let him walk. Then nail the draft and move on. That's if you keep Gru.

    If Gru goes too, we'll see a new staff, with new Schemes and a new approach with a new QB. I'm not being doomy, but in that instance the odds are we're looking at another multi year rebuild plan.
    If Gru stays and Colt can keep the fires burning while we fill the gaps and try and find a long term Franchise guy quickly to run under Centre then we're in pretty good shape.
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  15. #35

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    One of the reasons I don't think a whole new staff wouldn't have it so bad, is because we have a good offensive line, in place. At least to start out.
    Williams-Long-Roullier-Scherff-Moses will enable whatever new QB/scheme to settle in quicker.

    We also have the makings of an excellent secondary. Cornerback is a strong position. Especially if we can keep Breeland. Find another safety to play next to Swearinger, and concentrate on the Dline and ILB's.

    If a few holdovers from the current staff, Callahan, Manusky, Tomsula, and Gray are retained by the new head coach, the transition would be quite smooth. Hell, if he'd do it, and I know he would never, I'd keep Gruden as the offensive coordinator. Head Coach is just beyond his best position.
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  16. #36

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    I don't buy that losing #8 , AND firing Gruden, is necessarily a guarantee of gloom and doom either.

    The money saved on not overpaying for slightly above average QB play, half of the time, would be used to lock up guys like Zach Brown, Mason Foster, and Spencer Long.
    I'd also like to keep Breeland, Murphy, and Hopkins.

    On team friendly contracts, I'd give Pryor another shot. Maybe Galette too. That's only 6-8 guys. Most of which would be covered with not over spending on Crook.

    Another 4-5 good FA pickups, 1 being a versatile veteran RB, and another solid draft class and UDFA's, with emphasis on trying to get a good young QB, and steady additions to both lines.

    Combine that with a head coach that will actually work to develop, and then USE the running game, instead of just flapping his lips about doing so, and we're in the mix for the playoffs. With Colt, or another FA vet at the helm.
    Good Lord Ax - if the past 25 years doesn't absolutely prove beyond doubt that constant coaching and failure to find a long-term QB is guaranteed to produce chronic losing, what do you need to see? What other factors are there that have that kind of negative influence?

    For those that believe we are *doomed* with Bruce Allen at the helm, no matter what, how do you explain the other 16-20 years of pathetic performance - because it sure wasn't Bruce Allen screwing it all up? You'll say it's Snyder, Cerrato, and whatever other hacks we've had in the front office during that stretch. That may be a legitimate argument. But if you believe that, it makes zero sense to advocate for blowing it up and starting over - because guess who is going to be making the decisions on who the *next* coaching staff and QB will be?

    We're moderately better during the Gruden era because we stumbled onto a decent, stable head coach who generally knows what he's doing. We stumbled into a backup who turned out to be a starting QB and gives us a chance to win most games at least in terms of QB play. And we finally seem to have a defensive coaching staff that can field an aggressive, serviceable defense (maybe even eventually a great one). The idea that we're going to blow it all up again, send everyone packing, a find replacements who are better than these guys, and suddenly return to consistent winning - I think it flies in the face of everything we've seen for a quarter of a century.

    But hey...that's just me
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    I just wanted to say, that it's kind of amusing reading some things, both from this forum and other forums, how easy people make it sound to draft a franchise QB.

    Don't like Kirk ?
    No problem !
    We got a 1st round pick next year ! We don't even know how high it will be, but we got a 1st round pick !
    So BOOM ! Franchise QB ! Automatic ! Goodbye Kirk ! Problem solved !

    It doesn't work that way.
    If it was that easy, then teams would be adding franchise QB's every year.
    Yet numerous, numerous teams around the league are constantly struggling with finding the right QB.
    Even the 1st round is a crap shoot, especially with QB's.
    Have you ever seen the percentage of first round QB's who actually turn out to be franchise QB's ?
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Even so... I guess I just need a little more convincing that being better than Heath Schuler, Danny Wuerful, Patrick Ramsey and Tony Banks means the FO needs to break the bank on this guy for years.

    Nick
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  19. #39

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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    The problem has gotten worse in recent years as you see guys that are projected as 2nd, 3rd, and even as later round prospects get picked in Round 1. Now, is it possible to find gold with the 4th, 5th, or 6th QB taken, or even in later rounds. Of course. But counting on it is a different matter.

    What I don't get, and will continue to beat the drum on, is if we are doomed because of who we've got making organizational decisions, why all of a sudden are we trusting the same guys to hit the lottery in the draft after they blow it up and start over again? It makes no sense.

    When you've spent 25 years fumbling and bumbling and firing the coaches and shuffling in the next 'promising' QB every 3 years or so, perhaps going the other way might be warranted? I don't care if it's only for the George Costanza effect ('If every decision you've ever made has been wrong, wouldn't that mean doing the exact opposite is right?').

    Go Costanza. Sign Cousins long-term. Give your coaches extensions. And then go get offensive difference makers in the first 3 rounds of the draft.
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    Default Re: Our 2018 starting QB will be....

    Quote Originally Posted by ntotoro View Post
    Even so... I guess I just need a little more convincing that being better than Heath Schuler, Danny Wuerful, Patrick Ramsey and Tony Banks means the FO needs to break the bank on this guy for years.

    Nick
    None of those guys ever sniffed the stats and production Cousins has consistently put up - that's really a stretch brother. We've seen what Cousins can do with real #1 and #2 WRs. We keep Kirk in the fold, find those guys and a top RB and watch what happens.
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